(I'm really enjoying this debate. :derpe: Even to the point where I am not the slightest bit offended any more.) Well seeing as you've given your views as a non-Christian now I will give you my views as a Christian. For starters you probably know the bible even better than I do judging by how many times you've read it. And I will say that you are right in what you say about the commandments. I want to tell you that as you have proven my point already, you could have read the bible 1 000 000 times and gone to church every Sunday. but that still doesn't make you a Christian, You have made that quite clear. And just as that is true the opposite is also true. You don't have to read the bible or go to Church to be a Christian. The main thing is that you take Jesus Christ as your saviour. I must however say that Reading the Bible and going to Church will help you greatly in your Christian walk. But there are people out there who are persecuted for being Christians and therefore cannot go to Church or read the Bible. But they are still saved because they took Jesus as their saviour. So...basically what I'm getting at is that the Christian religion is not centred on reading the Bible or going to Church but it is centred on Faith. Faith in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. So people claim that they have found faults and errors and contradictions in the Bible. That is only because that they don't actually believe most of what they read. As a Christian we have faith. Part of Hebrews Chapter 10:38 "But my righteous one will live by faith." And because we have faith we can look and study these so called Contradictions. And From what I've found, the more we study these "Errors" The more we see that these errors are not actually errors at all and we then realise that it actually makes perfect sense. Isaiah 42:7 "You will open the eyes of the blind. You will free the captives from prison, releasing those who sit in dark dungeons." So some people might take this verse literally, I'm sure you know that Isaiah was a prophet who was sent by the Lord to prophesize the coming of Jesus and this was one of the things he said. But did he mean it literally or figuratively. Sure Jesus did physically open the eyes of the blind, he did set captives free and release them from the darkness. BUT he also accomplished these things in a figurative manner as well. By giving sight to the blind that verse also meant that he was going to spiritually open there eyes so that they could see that he was the was the way, truth and life. Meaning that when we have faith our eyes too are opened and we are able to fully understand his word. And by doing so people then gave their lives to him and were set free from sin ("You will free the captives from prison, releasing those who sit in dark dungeons") Sin is portrayed in the bible as evil and darkness and sin is also portrayed as a dungeon that keeps people from the light which is God. So when Jesus died to save us all we had to do was accept this and we would be set free. So these so called errors may just be results of misunderstandings because the people who read it, their eyes have not yet been opened because they have not yet come to accept the light that is waiting to guide them. Those are my views in response to yours. I hope you enjoyed reading my views as much as I enjoyed reading yours. (This is extremely fun for me btw) :derpe:
Well, practically speaking, I'm one of those that believe this is it. Once we die, there's nothing afterwards. We have no souls to go on to any kind of afterlife, and there's no Big Guy in the Sky waiting to judge us. Or some spaghetti entity, whichever. It'd be nice if we got reincarnated - but on a grander scale, ala the alternate universe idea mentioned earlier. Maybe we were all ponies a while back, and that explains why we love this show so much.
Despite this comic being satirical purposes, it's actually right: The Bible is very symbolic, as is any other sacred religious text. There are parts meant to be taken literally and those meant as metaphors. Some of this changes as society has advanced and evolved. ---------------On topic: Afterlife is tied to religion, but not exclusive. You don't need to have a religion because, like religion, it is an idea. Most religions have a belief or idea about what awaits us after death. That's why the topic has directly tied into religion. Don't forget the topic is about the afterlife and not about religion itself, so try to focus just on that idea regardless of origin.
Ill just say what i believe happen without religious stuff. If you were good in life you get Heaven. If you were bad you get Hell. Thats basically what i can say without involving religion.
What is good? What is bad? Will the one who has killed hundreds in some misguided mission, all in his eyes justified and for the greater good, not then go to Heaven? Will not one who works every day for the betterment of the lives of others, but one who deems himself unworthy, suffer in hell for sins that only he considers such? If we are judged by one who is more than human, why would they care for what is good or bad at large? On how large a scale will they do this? Would they even care, and not decide on the opinions of the judged? And yet is it not true that seeing things in the brightest light will blind you? Who is to say that the darkness is not more rewarding for the spirit? Let us take Plato's Cavern. In it, we have several prisoners, chained close to a wall, which is the only thing they see. Thus, having lived their life so, they have learned to see things by examining their shadow. Then, we release one for several years, when he learns to see the world as we do, as we think it should be. Then, he returns to teach his former comrades, and yet, he can no longer judge by the shadows. Is he not more blind than he was before he left? Then, one must ask themselves. Who are we in that metaphor? Who is Jesus, if such a man existed? Who fills the remaining role?
Heh I suppose you have a point if you use that metaphor HOWEVER. According to the Christian belief there are faults in that paragraph. Let's take the same scenario. One man finds Jesus and is set free from the darkness. He no longer has to judge by the shadows. He is freed from that prison. He leaves and study's all he can about his saviour. He comes back after a few years ready to teach his comrades. He enters the darkness and simply walks up to his comrades and begins to teach. How does he do this? Because he has found the light and it is guiding him. Not only that but his eyes have been opened now that he has found his saviour therefore he can see and doesn't have to judge by the shadows. (I assume you read my paragraphs and the verses that support those claims) Let's say that when he was set free from prison. He went to the outside world and then he learns to see the world as we do, as we think it should be (Society in general not necessarily all people) . Then, he returns to teach his former comrades, and yet, he can no longer judge by the shadows. You see in this example he learnt society's views and Society isn't necessarily right. When he returned to find he could not judge by the shadows it is because there was no light to guide him nor were his eyes truly opened. That's my view on the metaphor. Can't wait for your reply.
And yet, in both of your examples, he is still blind to how others view the world. In the former, he can form a view different from others. In the latter, he must learn again. Regardless, he is changed, and we can not say whether it was for better or worse. To put it plainly, when one goes and learns the teachings of the Bible, Koran, Torah, Dharma, or even in some cases the Al-Jilwah, one can go down two paths. One will always follow at least some of the tenets of their faith, but their opinion on the interpretation of it will always vary. Therein lies my main qualm with religion as an institution. No matter how many people or of what persuasion enter this "light" many will not form their own opinions, or make their own choices. They will look to some guiding figure, call it a pastor, priest, rabbi, preacher. They will take this figure's views, even if it is blatantly suicidal, as is the case of the Al-Qaida, or perhaps simply endangering of the freedoms of others, as is with Westborough Baptist Church. These sects are, of course, a minority, but in my eyes it is just as bad subscribing to a moderate majority sect. In either case, something of will is lost, or perhaps, it simply means the person lacks the will to choose for themselves initially. However, if one actually reads into what they were given and decides for themselves what is real and what is gilded metaphor, then perhaps they, when they join the rest of the world in the dark, they will still see, albeit differently. Those that did not choose will be the ones that will be blind to both the outside learnings, with no one to guide them, and to the sight of those around them, having forgotten that long ago. Therein lies my quarrel. If most people could read for themselves what they were taught and decide for themselves what is right, then perhaps religion would not be such a problem. However, since most do not, and in fact, most people do not choose their religion, but are instead forced into one, then it becomes a problem, as it is a system that counteracts chaos and change, the two things that lead to evolution, both physical and societal. This is why I subscribe to no religion that yet exists. In my eyes, it is but a convenient label, so one does not explain their views at length, but can do so in one word. Sadly, it is an oversimplification, and leads to erred assumptions.
Hey 51Monn, I fell behind a bit in this discussion and have a bit to catch up on. I will respond to your statement that I agree with what you said about what makes a Christian except for one thing. I agree that a Christian doesn't have to have read the bible or go to church to be one and going to church and reading the bible doesn't make you one. The part about having accpeted Jesus as lord and savior just depends on what branch of Christianity however. I know for the most part and most churches, including all the ones I was ever a part of, taught that. You would probably say that a person that says they are Christian but says no, Jesus isn't lord and savior is not a Christian. I will say though that it really is just a matter of if that person considers themselves to be a Christian. Not if they say they are because they could be saying they are to be a troll, but if they truely believe they are then they are regardless of what yours or my requirements will be. I'll let you know a bit more about myself. After getting out the cult I was in I continued on my Christian path. I actually became a Children's Minister and was taking bible clases to perhaps become a full Reverend at some point. It was in my studies of the Bible that I came to no longer believe in it. Also as a Christian I continued to struggle with tobacco addiction and alcoholism. I also lived a secret life that I kept hidden because I was convinced that it was wrong and didn't want anyone to know, now I can be more open about things I do and believe without being criticized that those things are unchristian. After re-evaluating and finding my own path I am now 7 years tobacco free and almost 5 years sober. I can honestly tell you that I am a much better man as a non-christian yet spiritual person than I ever was as a Christian. I'm also more secure of my path and sure of myself. I no longer feel I have to prove myself to anyone. I know that Christianity is not the correct path for me and the one I'm on now is. All I don't know is exactly where this path will lead, but I look forward to finding out. Leaving the Christian faith was a very positive spiritual advancement for me and I am very glad I did. I'm not proud of my Christian life, but it is behind me.
Well Of course I agree. Religion can be a problem with today's society for the exact reasons you said. The main thing is though as a Christian (I chose by myself btw) Is not to make the same mistakes as some people have. Some pastors/preachers can't be trusted. (Remember when the world ended twice last year?) That is why you simply trust in God and he will show you the way, open your eyes and keep you safe. That is why I do not worry about what society or anyone else says or thinks about me. As I know from faith that I am being guided the right way. That is my conclusion.
That is the other problem with religion. It is the right way because it is the right way. Circular logic is completely valid. =V
This thread should totally be fixed. Continue your discussions please, I'm watching and find it all amusing :Boo:
I respect your decision and I can plainly see that you have improved after you left. Obviously no one can change your mind so I will just tell you what I would've done if I ever fell into the situation. Because I believe in God I would've asked for forgiveness and guidance through prayer. I know a lot of Christians who went down far worse roads. (Some of them Murderers) They asked for forgiveness and took Jesus into their lives and are now leading wonderful Christian lives. Of course you chose to leave your religion and still turned out a better person and I respect that. But I cannot say that I will ever leave mine.
My religion is Whovian...actually it's more of a philosophy I converted after reading this: http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-dr.-who-became-my-religion/ "The Doctor loves us more than all the other creatures in the universe. He would die for us, but what he really wants to do is live with us." He reminds us that we are not alone against evil. Someday, when I die and if I've lived a good life, I'll get to travel in the TARDIS with The Doctor. My love for the doctor is far deeper than anything I felt when I was Christian. <--True story I'm sorry, I couldn't help posting a slight joke. Everything was getting so serious. Although my love for The Doctor is borderline religious for me.
I must say I am proud of you all for discussing this matter so calmly. This makes me proud to be a brony.
When your faith is so strong that you create a belief system, it's basically a religion. If it helps people lead better lives, I can't see it as a bad thing. Maybe it'll be weird to me, but my opinion wouldn't matter in comparison to that (my) belief.
So if we really wanted to we could claim to be Jedi, create beliefs and morals for it and essentially make a new religion. Lol I just couldn't resist XD
This would be funny if not for Jedi being an official religion in NZ, and having a rather large following worldwide. So no, not a new religion. Faith is believing without proof. You do not believe that you have a computer. You know you do. If we proved conclusively that one religion exists, then it would no longer be a religion. It would be fact.
