Pro-Gun vs Pro-control Debate

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Snow, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. Snow

    Snow The Snowiest of Snows
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    A few of y'all seem to think that mentally unstable people are able to legally buy weapons, which just isn't true. Mentally unstable and felons are denied registration right off the bat, so I dunno what you guys are talking about in that case.
     
  2. Dilly Star

    Dilly Star The Dilliest in the Galaxy
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    I would disagree with that not only because our laws have very poor ways of defining "mental instability", but also because it is difficult to prove someone is legally insane or "mentally unstable."

    I think a person could become mentally unstable after buying a weapon.
     
    #42 Dilly Star, Dec 19, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  3. Dragonbait

    Dragonbait Do you like bananas?
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    Taking away guns will not stop people from killing each other. They will just find the next easiest way to do it. Be it a knife, crossbow, tire iron, whatever.

    An anecdote: In Britain, the populace can't carry guns. But what do you hear about in areas? That you may get stabbed. They have found an alternative to killing with guns.

    It is the person that commits the act. The gun or knife is merely the tool used.

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  4. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    There are too many guns in circulation for America to just outright ban them.

    But let's say that everyone carries a gun for protection. They'll go to the cinema to watch a movie and a guy comes in and starts shooting everyone. Now, everyone is armed this time, so they shoot back. This nice movie then turns into a battlefield, with bullets flying everywhere and little kids crapping themselves.

    Obviously that's a bit of an exaggeration, but the underlying point is still there. Guns are a powerful weapon. The fact that anyone can own one of these is irresponsible. At least some form of license/training should be needed to use one. You need a license and lessons to drive a car. A gun should follow similar, if not stricter, regulations. If a mentally unstable guy can pick up his Mum's gun and go on a killing spree, that doesn't seem very safe and the regulations need to be stricter.

    Another scenario: You're walking down the street and a guy points a gun at you and asks for your money. But you don't fear since you are armed. You reach for your gun, but the criminal sees this and shoots you. He then proceeds to do whatever he wants and leaves, while you clutch your wound in agony.

    In a case like that, the criminal would be prepared and be a step ahead of you, so owning a gun is pointless. While guns would be nice to have, they aren't necessary. But like I said before, there are too many guns in circulation in America so there really aren't any short term solutions.

    As for people finding other alternatives to killing people, that is true. But atleast you're making it harder for them to kill someone. With the way it is currently, someone could get a little angry, be blinded by rage and kill someone without thinking. Guns make it too easy to end someone's life. I could understand if guns had a second use (like knives can be used to cut stuff), but all a gun can do is kill.

    Another thing that's been said is how gun-deaths are significantly lower than smoking-related deaths. While I think that smoking causes more harm than it does good, people are addicted to it, so simply banning it is harder than it sounds. I'm not sure what it's like in America, but in Britain they have warning labels on the packaging, kids are informed of the dangers of smoking and tobacco is generally shown in a bad light. I assume that this is to stop as many kids from taking up smoking as possible. Tobacco also creates a large profit, so manufactures aren't keen on stopping production. Again, I'm not quite sure how much profit guns produce.

    I've also seen how people say that the killers are responsible, not the guns. This is very true and it explains why places like Switzerland and Serbia are reasonably low. However, you can't exactly kill anyone who could potentially be a killer. You have to wait for them to commit the crime, and by that time lives have been lost. The only thing you can do is make it harder for them to commit the crime, which means improving gun control.

    Also another thing is that you're treating these statistics as numbers only. I'm pretty sure that someone said something like "only 8000 people died". Those 8000 people aren't a number, they are individuals. 8000 lives have been ended. 8000 families have been devastated. While there are 7 billion people on this Earth, each one of those people mean alot to someone (well the majority of them do).
     
    #44 B-Dog1996, Dec 19, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2012
  5. Yamiookami

    Yamiookami EP's Resident Yami

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    This would be pretty much all I have to say on the matter. I despise guns and would very much like them not to exist, personally. But futile wishes are silly.

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  6. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    I've realised that I've just written a wall of text, so I'll do a TL;DR version for those of you who don't have the time:

    - The problem is to great to be solved any time soon

    - Guns are too powerful to be available to anyone

    - If these shootings are still happening regularly, then things aren't strict enough

    - Even if you are prepared for an attack, the criminal will always be a step ahead

    - Even if there are alternatives, gun control would make it harder to kill people

    - It's not like people need guns to survive

    - You can't exterminate anyone who's emotionally unstable (ethically), so gun control is the next best thing

    - These are lives being ended, not just a statistic
     
  7. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    Also, pic related and made me laugh a little:
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Valkyyria

    Valkyyria Da Valkü!

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    Ok, so i did a little research, since you said america is much bigger and therefore has more killings.

    So just take Wikipedia for the population, if im not wrong america has 3,8 times more people than germany. I will take germany to argue, since i can find better information and we have one f the strictest gunlaws you can find.

    So in 2011 there were 8,583 people killed by firearms, in germany it was 158. So since ameria has 3,8 times more people lets just take the murders commited with fireguns in germany by 3,8. So that makes around 600 Death if germany were as big as the US.

    Well the numbers may not be perfectly acurate, but even though i think we all can see a difference here right?

    So what does it take in germany to legally own a gun:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Germany

    That pretty much sums it up. It is nearly imposible to own a gun in germany as a private person. Not only this the laws also regulate knives, swords, nunchakus and so on and so on.

    BUT (heres the big but) In some aspects you all were right, Guns are just tools. In Switzerland normally every guy above 18 has a gun at home and still there are not as many shootings or death by guns. What does that lead to? In my opinion its the Attitude of the americans and the overall economics, that lead to more crimes. America has a lot of crimes compared to every other country in europe.

    I think its the attitude of americans that need to change, not only the gun laws, even though it would help a lot. I always have the feeling guns are like cigarettes in america. An addiction.

    Just a few moments ago i watched the news (some reliable news) and a lot of people are buying the gun, that the shooter used to kill innocnet children... i just dont get it. why would i want the same gun as he used... why? And i dont speak of normaly ourchased, because they wanted a good gun. In the last few days the gun purchases went high, especially for the gun he used.

    TL,DR : I dont like guns and i dont want to have them around me and am happy to live in germany and not the US.
     
  9. Snow

    Snow The Snowiest of Snows
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    ^ Um, you are also forgetting that I pointed out America is a hetreogenous society, unlike Germany, and there is a far higher number of poor in America than in Germany, it has more to do with it than simple population, I hope you realize that.

    And B-Dog, you may think I'm insensitive just because I use statistics and facts over my own personal feelings, yes I realize tht people are losing family members that way, but I look at things in a logical, statistical sense. And many of you are letting your hatred of guns cloud your argument, the moment that you say that you are debating because you despise something, it stops being a debate and becomes an argument of ideology, which gets no one nowhere.

    alos, in my entire life, one spent entirely in Texas, the state that virtually everyone has a gun in, I have never seen a gun unless I was out in the shooting range. You people seem to forget that the vast majority of gun owners use their guns for one of these things: To hunt, to shoot for fun at te shooting range, or to collect. Why punish those people for the actions the small minority?
     
    #49 Snow, Dec 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2012
  10. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    I don't think you were being insensitive, you were just backing up your argument with evidence. I just thought I'd write that sentence in my wall of text, since it was relevant. Sorry if it seemed like I was targeting you.

    Although back on topic, I honestly believe that regular citizens are better off without guns. Giving them to people like security guards and policemen are understandable (and in some cases, necessary), but everyone else shouldn't have a need for them.

    Also, I have question for those who live in America: What information (if any) are you given about guns during school years? Here in Britain, they are constantly reminding us about the dangers of cars, smoking, alcohol, etc. So I'm wondering what kids are told about guns. I know that it's common sense (guns are dangerous), but unfortunately many kids don't have common sense.
     
  11. Snow

    Snow The Snowiest of Snows
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    Well, at leat where I am, we told a few times not to misuse guns, they are dangerous if not properly handled, etc. me, I'm pretty well informed on the proper use of guns as my family owns 6(but we don't keep ammo unless we are planning on going to the range soon) and the fact my father was a one time competitive shooter and NRA gun instructor. A gun that is well maintained and locked up most of the time is of no danger to anyone except the most idiotic of idiots
     
  12. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    I agree with this. Unfortunately, not every family is as sensible as your family. I've done a very quick check and these are the current laws that allow you to have a gun (again, correct me if I'm wrong):

    - You must have had a criminal background check

    - You have to be 18+ to buy a gun (may vary with handguns)

    These are reasonable laws, but there isn't really any training that tells you how to use the gun. Sure, in some families, you get trained by your parents but if a car requires a license, why shouldn't a gun?

    Guns could be controlled in a way similar to cars. Each car has a registration number that identifies it. Each driver also has a license and they need insurance on the car to be able to use it. Usually the insurance costs more if you've had a bad history, meaning it's harder for bad drivers to get a car. You can get points on your license and, when they add up, your license gets taken away.

    Obviously that system won't be perfect since cars and guns are different and there are already many guns in circulation, so finding a place to start would be tough. But maybe one day, the sensible people can have guns and the idiots won't have access.
     
  13. Valkyyria

    Valkyyria Da Valkü!

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    I do! Its why i think there are so many crimes in general. And its also what i mentioned with the economy. Your middleclass is dying out, there will be just poor, not so poor and rich people in the future. A bad economy always ends with a lot of crimes. Stil i think there would be less firearm crimes, when there wouldnt be so much firearms. There is a german saying i will try to translate. The original is "Gelegenheit macht Diebe" which (badly) translates to " Opportunity makes Thiefes".
    If we think this trhough in a cold way it would say the guy shooting all the kids had the opportunity because his mother had all this guns at home. If they werent, did he really have the opportunity to have so much guns? Would he have bought weapons on the black marcet and did he even have contact with someone from the black marcet to get some? So if he hadnt had the guns, could it possibly be, that less people died? I think yes, maybe he would then take a knife but how many would be killed with the knife? Maybe 1 or 2 people... not as much as he could do with the guns.

    I think o change the crimes done with guns you have to change america deeply.
     
  14. Snow

    Snow The Snowiest of Snows
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    And it is virtually impossible to change America deeply Val, I mean, just look at the health care debate went, imagine the backlash of tough, tough gun control laws.

    Ad B-Dog, guns DO have registration numbers, and I honestly wouldn't mind if I had, if I wanted a gun(which I do), I could put up with yearly background checks and having to have a license. I mean, I have to have a license to hunt, fish, and drive, having a license for a gun wouldn't be too much different from getting a CC(concealed carry) license.
     
  15. Valkyyria

    Valkyyria Da Valkü!

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    I know that... and i think it is sad, since america also has a lot of good sides and a huge potential. But one can dream, right? :D
     
  16. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    I read about the CC license, but I thought that it would make sense for this license apply to owning a gun in general. After all, there seems to be a license for pretty much everything else.

    And, no, there isn't much anyone can do about the heterogenous communities in America. America has a diversity of cultures that are generally quite aggressive to one another. If the solution was as simple as "tell them to stop", this world would be ideal.
     
  17. Sparkypony

    Sparkypony Antisocial ponyality disorder

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    I think we should keep them as is. Because lunatics often STEAL them.

    Only thing we need is better security.
     
  18. ThePoeticPony

    ThePoeticPony Forgetful Pro

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    I've been told apparently my opinion on this is wrong because I've purely been told as a reason that people just like having guns, so I'll keep this short and sweet.

    I don't it's wrong for Americans to have small handguns which can fire, what, maybe 3 rounds before reloading on average? It is in the constitution which I won't dispute. However, what isn't right is that people just about older than 20 can walk into a gun store and buy a fully automatic weapon that can fire thousands of bullets in like, 5 minutes. This would normally require training in the military or the police force, and usage of these weapons should only be given to those defence forces. You see, with a small handgun, that's self defence, with a shotgun that has a large spread and an automated rifle, you're going out to kill.

    It doesn't help how ammunition is apparently dirt-cheap nowadays, it's too easy for someone without a criminal record to go in, buy a gun and a stockpile of ammo, walk out, and go on a mass killing spree, just because they've never committed a crime before doesn't mean they can't plan and carry out one, and by then, well, as you can see from recently, you'd be already too late.

    By the way, to the post above, the guns used in the Dark Knight Rises shootings were bought legally, and he practically had an armoury in his apartment.
     
    #58 ThePoeticPony, Dec 19, 2012
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  19. B-Dog1996

    B-Dog1996 Princess of the Forum

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    I got bored and researched a bit more into this dude. Apparently he had a pretty good record up until the shootings, so it would've been hard to tell that he was a murderer. I guess the only thing that could have prevented it would've been searching everyone before they went into the theatre (although people would be annoyed by the invasion of their personal space).
     
  20. Snow

    Snow The Snowiest of Snows
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    Um, Poetic, no one can just walk into a store a buy a weapon that fires thousands of rounds per minute, unless they have a license that is extremely hard to get, and even then there's no store that sells that sort of weaponry. An the cost of ammunition varies immensely from caliber, to grain weight, to even the kind, in fact, really the only ammo that's really cheap is things like 22. Rounds which are extremely small. If someone was shot with a .22, they more than likely wouldn't seriously hurt you in any way unless the guy was somehow accurate enough to hit something vital, and even then you probably could make it to a hospital in time. Also, another thing, most guns are EXPENSIVE, just a regular 700 rifle can cost nearly $600, and automatic weapons can get into the many thousands of dollars.
    An I like how you pointed out the guns the Aurora guy had and not the fact his ENTIRE HOUSE WAS RIGGED TO BLOW!(sorry if I sound rude)
     

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