"Bullying is the use of force or coercion to abuse or intimidate others. The behavior can be habitual and involve an imbalance of social or physical power. It can include verbal harassment or threat, physical assault or coercion and may be directed repeatedly towards particular victims, perhaps on grounds of class, race, religion, gender, sexuality, appearance, behavior, or ability." This has to stop. Completely. People don't realize it's happening but it is and we're all part of it, myself included. We've all done it at some point and I think it's time it's highlighted. I have a prime example. Saikyo This guy isn't perfect. Far from it. He has issues of his own and has caused his fair share of problems for the site and its users. He knows this. What has happened is that we (as a site) have collectively decided to bully the ever loving hell out of him until he decides to back down and/or leave. I feel that's what happened in the staff room and it's happened many times on the site. But I don't mean the open "We hate you and going to pick on you bullying", oh no. It runs deeper than that. Saikyo makes/posts in a thread his opinion. One person disagrees. He responds. Another person disagrees. They respond, as well as the previous person. He responds. Another disagrees. I've seen (and participated in*) threads where around 6 people are actively arguing against Saikyo, usually using the same points as each other. This is the same as one kid in class asking a question or answering something and the rest of the class spends the next 10 minutes saying why they think it's a stupid question/answer. Is it a stupid question/answer? Maybe. But if we all pick it apart and throw it in his face, often in a hostile manner, than what kind of community is that? How is her to learn from his mistakes if we not only constantly remind him of them but constantly punish him for them? It's gotten to the point where we all expect him to screw up so much that the only way he gets a response from us is to screw up. Anything else and we expect it's either motivated by an inevitable screw up or prompted by someone else who pushed him to do it. As someone who was bullied a great deal in the past, this sounds quite familiar to me, if you know what I mean. To make this clear for everyone, this isn't a thread on "get off Saikyo's back" even if it seems like it. This is a thread highlighting this prime example of what I see as bullying in an extreme level and I think everyone needs to step back and look at it. Things have gotten personal far too many times and people are getting hurt and angry over this when all that should be happening is people discussing what's best for the site. It isn't only happening to Saikyo but he was the best example I could give and I asked his permission to show it. He knows he's caused problems and probably participated in acts like this as well, but that doesn't absolve anyone from inflicting it on him. If things keep going on like this on such a scale, there's only one place I'm going. *As much as I possibly could I've always done my best to be professional and not let things get personal. I fought for and against Saikyo's opinion and never have I intended to hurt and/or bully someone.
This idea could be counter productive as well. I'll keep this short. If you disagree with someone's idea or point of view, that's okay. You can voice your opinion. HOWEVER, keep your arguments aimed at the idea, NOT the person that gave it. Also, if you are going to involve yourself in such a conversation, please make sure to answer the questions: 1. Why you disagree with the suggestion. 2. What you would do differently. 3. Elaborate the reasons behind your decision. I've stayed out of these recent threads, except for offering one compromise solution which I think most people agreed with on a 24 hour acknowledgement of issues being brought up. I am not as active anymore except in threads like this as it is how I show my displeasure with the current status of the site. By not using it in its current form and condition, I'm saying that I am not happy with it. If I continue to use the forum as usual, then why would anyone feel the need to change it? If people are still using it, then what you are doing is "fine" and there is no reason to change the status quo. Or so we are to believe... I'm not calling for a boycott or anything, just stating how I show my disappointment with the state of things. Current staff - lead by example. Be active in all parts of the forum, radio, blogs, & chat. Don't hide in the corner that you are responsible for. Involve yourselves. Enjoy the site and the users. Don't tell us that your are going to change things... SHOW US.
My original post had 2 examples but talking with the person had me find they were the completely wrong person I thought of and I couldn't think of who it was. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll edit that out. - - Auto Merge - - Dude, if the internet allowed it I'd hug you right now. This is exactly what I mean.
I've been against Saikyo's opinions and ideas more than often in the past, but i don't think i would call it bullying. In fact, i recall alot of times when i was actually more open to his ideas than anyone else, despite disliking them. I can't even count the times i had to play the role of peacekeeper between Saikyo and Yami on one hand... The only time i've been genuinly rude to him was in a private thread and i already apologized to him for that. Currently there are several people on staff who are still biased against either him or his opinions, i don't know. What i do know is that this bias came from the fact that most staff members can't take his criticism for what it is and start seeing it as "he's just causing trouble" or "he's up to something".
The issue isn't one persons actions. The issue is the combined actions of everyone involved. 1 person yelling at someone is rarely bullying. It's when a group of people gang up on someone that is becomes bullying, and only when everyone involved realizes what is happening that it can be changed. You don't have to agree with Saikyo or his views. Berry for example finds most, if not all, of what Saikyo does to be totally wrong but he agrees that bullying him (intentional or not) is definitely not the way to deal with it. But does that mean we as a community have the right to gang up on him and make him feel bad for doing what he thinks is the right thing? Whether it is the right thing or not is irrelevant on this point, it's how the community reacts to it that I made this thread about.
I agree and all that, but part of moving on to happy world involves...not continuing on making these threads (to anyone, I'm not just pointing you Foxy).
I'd have something to say but it's based off of foxy's example. Which basically means calling out a specific person ad since this is an anti bully thread about that person it would seem counterproductive to post it. Even though its just why I think this bullying happens. I guess if saikyo says he doesn't care, I'll post it. It's probably wrong though but that's only because its what I as a normal user know, see and get told. Being told anything at all has the risk of being wrong, reworded or anything really.
I didn't claim them to be fun. I think everyone needs a breather and I would prefer they stop cropping up every other day. All that I'm saying... I mean god dammit, just look at this and tell me what you think is actually necessary here. People need to grow up, throw their grudges away, and act NICE to each other for once. A thread can't make that decision. Only YOU can do that for the sake of YOURSELF and everyone else's wellbeing. This thread will end up spiking an argument to those involved like all the rest. I'm already contradicting myself by even responding, so I'm out. Edit: I'm sorry that I even need to say these things, but I've just been feeling quite bad about what is happening here.
I gotta agree with mike. I swore I had posted in that intro thread something about how this place must look from the outside, but its not there. I've it no clue where it's at, but its true. We normally have more guests then users on at any time. What must the guests think when they show up during one of these times. Cause these treads seem to get a lot of people to show up and they always seem to get heated real quick.
I agree with mike too. I tried to stay out of those other complaint threads because I feel much happier when I don't get involved in all that ruckus, even if it means the rest of the site is less active. It's a starting point. I have grudges here, but since the last outburst I realized that no one wants to hear all that whining. These members have hurt me, but it's not like they murdered my family with a smile on their face.
Then from now on we should send all suggestions and complaints in the private discussion forum, make Site Discussion a read-only forum, and while we're at it, you might wanna scratch this from the complaint box: Because we sure as hell get **** from all sides whenever we wanna talk about something.
or we could make a super cool forum hidden away unless you want to see it. Like that staff forum, but for everyone, but only for things like this. Problem solved, everyone wins.
to put my 2 cents in: I was off forum/inactive for a while, mostly due to irl problems I had, but those problems had result that I usually don't check threads that "aren't of my interest or don't seem fun for me". Thing is, I had/am having so much stress irl that I really don't need any more online (one of reasons I retired from staff). With that out of the way, Saikyo. Tbh, he's not my closest friends, we really talked outside EP related stuff (and on forum). From what I've seen and know, yes he has many flaws, but it's better just to tell him about those flaws as an advice and how he should fix them rather then just pick on it. I remember one skype chat with him after I retired, I told him everything that I didn't like about him and what he should change on himself. It wasn't very easy for him, but I think it's more useful than just picking on him. As Dragonbait said, if you wanna attack an idea, attack idea and say what's wrong with it, not the person. If you have problem with person, better settle down that face to face once and for all (not a collective effort against someone). If you can't like someone, then tolerate him. That doesn't go only for Saikyo, but for anyone.
I definitely think that your personal feelings about someone shouldn't enter into public debates you have with that person. It's not appropriate to shout someone down with "You always say that!" or "This is just like that one time when you ____!" We should try to maintain relevancy to the thread's topic without ad hominem attacks. Unfortunately, some of us do sometimes find ourselves on the unpopular side of the debate. It's a choice we make.
