That's not how symbols work. If a large group of people decide a symbol means something, then it does. That how words are made and languages change. You can disagree, since it also means something different to you, and that's all well and good, but it doesn't make them wrong. It also doesn't help your case that one of the major designers of the Confederate flag, William Tappan Thompson, wrote this in an editorial: "As a people, we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would this be emblematical of our cause. ... Such a flag... would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations and would be hailed by the civilized world as the white mans flag. ... As a national emblem, it is significant of our higher cause, the cause of a superior race, and a higher civilization contending against ignorance, infidelity, and barbarism." So Thompson is essentially saying that the flag embodies white supremacy. Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederate States of America wrote this defense of slavery in his memoir (Vol. 1 pp 262-263, if you really want to know): "A passing remark may here be afforded as to the answer thus afforded to the clamor about the 'horrors of slavery.' Had these Africans been a cruelly oppressed people, relentlessly struggling to be freed from their bonds, would their masters have dared to leave them, as was done, and would hey have remained as they did, continuing their usual duties, or could the proclamation of emancipation have been put on the plea of a military necessity, if the fact had been that the negroes were forced to serve, and desired only an opportunity to rise against their masters?" Here Davis is suggesting that black people were selfish for not wanting to be slaves, and that the life of a slave was actually a pretty good one. There are a lot of examples of racist rhetoric among the founders of the Confederacy as well as the supporters of the Confederate flag. I understand what it means to some of you, but to say that the view of the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism is a "lie" is a falsehood by itself. People who dislike the Confederate flag because of racist associations have plenty of good reason to do so.
Another sad fact is that the media has taken a huge role in demonizing the flag and those who proudly fly it. They basically call people like me a racist when that's not true at all. Over time, society has dictated that there is a certain group of Americans who are not ALLOWED to be offended. I actually posted this on DA not long ago.
I actually think it's wonderful that you're those things and would never demonize you strictly for being those things. I think that's the whole point of diversity, really; I'm happy that people can be themselves and be different. As to the Confederate flag and its racist associations, please view my above post. I understand that everyone has different views and I welcome those views into the discussion. I would never dismiss someone's personal perspective as wrong, but would rather like to make sure all the perspectives get talked about.
A large group of Southerners decided years ago that the rebel flag is a symbol of the South. It can't be denied that there were racists in the Confederate ranks. There were just as many racists in the Union ranks. For example: "Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man." -Abraham Lincoln The men that fought under the stars and bars weren't fighting for slavery. The vast majority of them didn't own slaves. They were fighting to free themselves from a nonrepresentational government. As for the symbolism of the flag, I think this video explains it fairly well:
Yes, there were racists in the Union. Yes, the alternative approach to interpreting the Confederate flag is not incorrect. I have been saying all along that you can view the flag any way you want, but that doesn't necessarily make people who disagree with you wrong. EDIT: The bottom line is that you've given your argument over to a pervasive false dichotomy, when in reality neither interpretation is incorrect.
I did read your other post and you do make a valid point. Yes, at the time of the southern states' secession, slavery was still in effect. However, the main premise over their secession was over the federal gov't dictating what laws they could and could not make. Slavery was one of them but a large portion was also over taxation and numerous other issues that the states and federal gov't still clash over. In fact, the whole principle of Federalism is based around the balance between federal and state gov'ts. The federal gov't being too powerful is an issue that survives even now. Especially with Barak Obama having a record of more executive orders than any previous president. That's another thing the media twists around. Being anti-Obama is labelled as bigotry when being anti-(any previous president) was considered an expression of your constitutional right to free speech. Slavery was, yes, a crime against humanity but saying Jefferson Davis was racist, at least from where I'm sitting, is only half the story. Mostly since even the father of our country George Washington was himself a slave owner. In fact, the abolition of slavery in the northern states in the early 1800s was actually voted on by each individual state. So that means that ever since after the revolution, our nation thrived on slave trade and labor all under the beloved star spangled banner. That's why I have difficulty in seeing the Confederate flag as being more racist than the American flag. The Klan hid behind it and behind Christianity. I don't see how that makes the symbols they hide behind racist when instead they are not simply labelled as what they are... TERRORISTS. It's like all of the so-called "Islamic" terrorist organizations that give the whole religion a bad name. Maybe I'm just naive and an idealist but that is my opinion on the matter.
You're not wrong, Rockout, I just wanted to make sure that the valid alternative opinion was given voice.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the validity of the alternative opinion, but I do appreciate the fact that you stayed rational. I've seen similar debates a number of times, and it rarely turns out well. Person A: UR A RACIST!!! Person B: MUH FREEDOMS!!! Person A: SHUT UP RACIST!!! Person B: SHUT UP COMMIE!!! Person C: *posts popcorn gif*
And in the end, both sides just end up making asses of themselves... proving nothing. Can you pass the butter?
It doesn't belong on government buildings. There's nothing wrong with the flag itself, but because of what it can symbolize to some, and it being the flag of an obsolete nation, it simply shouldn't be on government buildings. Fly it wherever you want on your property, on your car, wear it on your shirt, go nuts. That's totally fine, no one is censoring the flag unless it's being banned everywhere... which it isn't. I'm a southerner myself, and I think it's the right decision to remove the flag from government buildings, but that it would be a really stupid idea to actually try and censor it or ban it. On government property, all demographics have to represented or none. It's the only way that's fair. Personally, I'm not usually a fan of the US, and until a few weeks ago, was planning on moving abroad. I won't go into details about why I'm no longer planning on going abroad, but I will say I'm not as ashamed of living in America since the Supreme Court's recent ruling on marriage equality. I'm proud of that achievement, and if the country takes a few more steps forward, I might actually be okay with calling myself an American.
See, the problem with this issue of the confederate flag is that it's waaay too late to really complain. I get the meaning behind the flag, but that was decades upon decades ago. Now it's a thing of southern pride. Sure, there are morons who run around with racial meaning behind it, but there will always be morons holding up flags, regardless of what's on them, be it Rainbow Flag, Swastika Flag, or Two-Headed Bear Flag. It's kinda like brits complaining about the "Don't tread on me" snake flag. Maybe my opinion doesn't exactly count, seeing as the only thing more northern than me is Canada, but it's still my two cents.
That flag represents all Southerners, and their shared heritage, both good and bad. While it's the right of the individual state governments to fly or remove the flag, I believe that removing a historic symbol of rebellion against oppression is a mistake. Besides, if you want to get technical, slavery became an institution under the Stars and Stripes, not the Stars and Bars. Should we do away with that flag, too?
You're getting me wrong here. I'm not saying the flag should be done away with at all. But the Confederacy was its own nation. Once the states seceded, they were no longer the US. Flying the Confederate flag on government property would be like flying the British flag on government property, except that England still exists. I didn't say anything about which flag slavery began under, and I don't think there's anything wrong with individuals flying any flag they please. But don't say the flag represents all southerners. I don't associate with the flag at all. The nation that it represented stood for things (other than just slavery) that I do not, and no longer exists. That flag doesn't represent me. It represents a nation that is no more. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with people taking pride in it, or in their heritage. But it still doesn't belong on government buildings. Or should we start flying the flags of all demographics on all government buildings? I mean really, it has to be fair. The Stars and Stripes flag represents ALL of the US. That's why it goes on government buildings, and why other flags should not. It's not about only the Confederate flag, it's about any other flag. The flags flown on government property are to represent the entire nation. The only flag that does that is the Stars and Stripes, because that's what it was designed to do. (Even though I am not a fan of that flag, either.)
The flag that flies was the battle flag, anyway. Not really the National Confederacy flag. The main point that people see and make is this: It was flown and used by an army that fought for (among other things,) the right to oppress one of more groups of people based on their birthright. In this one point is is compared to another flag used by an oppressive army. Still, the legislation (that is getting signed as I write this,) just removes it from the state capital, and there have been requests to do so from private groups for years. It doesn't change the rights of others to display it. Just be aware that others know, (even though they should have already,) that it is used beside other flags by supremacy groups. People who know you will surely know that's not why you'd display it... but people who are getting a first impression by seeing the flag may be a bit more wary.
You know, there is a side to slavery in the south that has been conveniently edited out of all of the school textbooks! Check this out!! Seems to me, slavery was less of a RACIAL thing and more or less just a HUMAN thing! In fact, the continent of Africa had been selling their own people into slavery since hundreds of years before America was even a country.
Dunno about everybody else, but the fact that only rich landowning whites owned slaves and that blacks could also own slaves was included in our textbooks. EDIT: The problem with making too many assumptions based on those facts is that, in spite of the fact that blacks could own slaves... - most blacks didn't (an even lower percentage than whites) - most slaves in America were black - incredible numbers of black people were taken from Africa as slaves (millions) and many came to the Americas - just because the Africans did it to their own people doesn't make it right, besides we didn't rule their countries/tribes, only our own - in some areas of our country black people couldn't own property strictly because they were black - in some areas of our country being black alone was considered a marker of being a slave In America, slavery has definitely been a race issue. Other matters can be debated, but slavery (in some cases, accidentally) became a racial issue through its associations. In other parts of the world it has indeed been different.
