Religious Discussion

Well right, wrong, good and evil are practically the same. None of them have a real meaning besides the one you as a person put on them. I was raised the god is real, but I changed that by looking at the world around me and seeing that it's not possible. I was told god was right, so would me being atheist now be wrong?

Even asking if it feels right doesn't really help. Hitler thought he was right, so was he?

 

I forgot to include empathy. Surely Hitler didn't actually believe what he was doing was good, I mean what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if all the jews wanted to exterminate all the Germans?

We already have objective morality, it's called empathy, and if you don't have empathy then you're a sociopath and therefore unable to determine right from wrong in the first place, so you have to be told what's right and wrong by those who do have empathy.

 

well what is good if not right and bad if not wrong. Isn't the right thing usually the good thing?

Sure Hitler believed he was doing good, he was fixing the economy. Of course if it was flipped the he'd probably think it's wrong. That's self interest.

Empathy, has no bearing on right, wrong, good or evil. Right and wrong don't exist. There is no proof they are real, they exist because man made them. They were made out of self interest for their own lives.

Can you give me an example of right and wrong. And why they are such.

 

Well sure, scientifically, when you maximize overall human happiness that is when you are behaving good, and when you maximize overall human suffering, that is when you are behaving evil. Example, if I go out and kill a bunch of people, then the members of the family of those I've killed mourn the deaths of their loved ones. Objectively speaking I am behaving evilly.

What about good? Well, once again it really depends on your societies definition of what good is, if your society promotes happiness, tolerance, and the like then it's to be assumed that being a polite, understand person who always tries to do the right thing and puts theirself before others is behaving objectively morale, or 'good'.

 

Why is that bad,wrong or evil? Who says, society, god or some other unknown force. There is really nothing that says that action is wrong in anyway, besides yourself.

Ah society, so society decides good and bad. I remember a time when black and whites couldn't use the same water fountains. Now that was "BAD" looking back from now, but was it good in the past if society said it was. Was burning witches a "GOOD" thing? Society of that time thought it was a good thing, unless it was them, but that would be self interest again.

 

Right but you're forgetting something, objectively good and bad are not determined but any one thing, they are determined by a number of things. 1. How does my behavior affect others? 2. What does the law say? Is what I am doing illegal? 3. How do I feel about what I'm doing? Does it feel right? and 4. What do my peers think?

Using ALL of these ingredients you can get some form of objective morality, not just one. It all comes down to this, treat others the way you want to be treated.

 

1) What does it matter the behavior affects others, since right and wrong aren't real what is done has no real consequence. (except the law)
2)The law was made out of self interest, so of course it would say things that affect them in a negative way are bad. Like being shot, people don't seem to like it
3)That is the only thing that really matters isn't, how you feel about doing it. If I feel fine doing it does that mean it's okay to do? I don't hunt, but others do. They must feel nothing okay with killing animal. So is now right because people do it?
4) Well to answer that, do you even care what your peers think. My peers seem to think furries are gross, so does that make it bad that I am one. Of course were talking about bigger things here like murder and what not. What would it matter what people think of you. Remember that special rule, "be yourself"

 

yes, but that consequence doesn't affect me. Unless you become upset enough to attack me for the comment.

I won't say words can't hurt people, but if the person doesn't care about what they say to others then it has no consequence.

 

That is all well and good, but it still has no affect on me. If I tell a co-worker that I hate them and then all of the above happens, what's the problem to me? None, I continue doing what I'm doing. So since good and bad don't exist, all I've done is an action. One that affects the other person and not me. Unless then get violent and wish me harm, then it affects me.

That sounds different then the way I'm using the term, I was talking about it being used to stop others from harming one another or stealing or whatever else. Laws were created to stop man from doing things deemed bad to a society. I don't murder anyone because I have no reason to. It doesn't interest me to do it. I do wish to remain alive and take my own life if I so wish and not so random killer to decide for me. That is self interest, I want what will keep me from dying, murder and anything else are given labels as to what they are. Society decides what is "good" and "bad". That will change in time like it did in the past.

 

That's all well and good, but it still isn't a good or bad thing. It's still just a action.

I believe that was really the topic we were on anyway. Good and bad.

Calling someone anything isn't a good or bad choice, it's action. The action itself has consequences, but they are not right or wrong ones. I call people I like negative things, it's my way of showing affection. Now sometimes people overhear these things and say I'm calling them bad things or it's wrong to talk that way. Why is it bad or wrong, it's only that way because that person said it was. People decide right and wrong. When enough agree you get a definition.

That's how gay marriage is working. Before lots hated the idea, now gay marriage gains ground. Society changed.

 

Yes what actions are in our best interests. That sounds a lot like interest in ones self. And now we've made a nice little circle.

 

It's ironic, the best explanation (IMHO)
is that whatever God is up there set the Big Bang and evolution in motion, then of course there's the black hole theory,

But that leaves one question, what started the first Big Bang?

Genesis isn't contradicting Evolution, it's DESCRIBING IT!
Sure it was millions of years to us, but to him/her it was only a few days.

Who said apes aren't just the semi-humans that this supreme being wanted to resemble him/her only somewhat, and that they turned the first ones into Adam and Lillith?

And the proof of Holy Magic, is none other than science.
How does it all fall so perfectly into place? That is the question.

 

While I appreciate the attempt being made here, is it really a good idea to mix things together like this?--science is generally not a good thing to try and stick to religion, if only because then it makes it possible that rather than supporting, the science may take away from a religion's ideas. Not a problem for an atheist or someone with a flexible religion, of course, but still...

Also, what do you mean by Holy Magic? I was under the impression that Christianity does not approve of magical practice of any kind save prayer and what rituals are needed to prove one's faith.

 

Spiderman's appeal for religion and science to coexist is appreciated, at least by me.

It is rather silly to ask "what started the start" because that statement is tautological. The start started itself, because it was the start.

A better question might be "what was before the start" and that question is not one that scientists have ignored. The sister theory of "The Big Bang" is often known as "The Big Crunch" and it works in much the same way. Imagine the continuous expansion and collapse of our universe represented on a graph as sin(x), with multiple beginnings and multiple ends. That's one common theory.

I agree, that most certainly is the question.

My answer to that question is that the religious text in question was one of many responses by mankind to explain away the mysteries of our universe. Of course it would fit; we made it so it would fit. Of course, there do appear to be statements found therein that do not fit (in my opinion), and so many change their interpretations. Eventually, our interpretation of said religious text is going to be so far from what its authors could have imagined that the religion might no longer have been recognizable to them. Indeed, one might argue that much has already been lost to translation.

I do not question the right of others to be religious. That is their choice. However, whenever religion and modern science are compared, I find myself reflecting on what the people, the time the Torah was first written, believed to be scientifically factual. Back then, the earth was the center of our solar system and little else existed beyond what was clearly visible in the night sky. We have since found that the universe is much larger, more complicated and much grander than our erroneous guesses or wishful thinking would have had us believe.

I hesitate to look down upon religion, but fewer and fewer scientists are religious with the passing of the years and I myself see no evidence whatsoever that truly supports the writings made 2000 years ago and massive amounts of evidence that suggest there is no god. On the other hand, I applaud your interpretation of your religious text, Spiderman, and I realize that I cannot force my views upon others. I believe what I have stated here, but I respect your right to believe whatever you wish and state those beliefs here. I do not wish to attack them, only to briefly bring to light my disagreements.

 

I'm an Atheist. My experiences with religion have all been horrible.
My first and only time in a Church was when I was 6. We were in a small town in Alabama. My mom grew up there and she wanted us to attend her old Church. She introduced my father and I to the preacher. My last name is very Jewish and he must've picked up on that because the whole time he was giving a speech about how we deserved the holocaust, the exodus, and the slavery. He said anyone who wasn't Christian was a product of Satan. My father, while Agnostic Deist, was raised Jewish and very much respects Jewish culture. He was furious and upset. He took my mother I and by the hand and ran into the car. Crying, I asked them who their god was. He replied by saying, "whatever it is I don't want you anywhere near it, bigoted ****." My mom believes in spirits but no god. She tried to show me all religions. Both the good and the bad. My father raised me around science. When I asked him where people came from he'd pull out a science text book and show me evolution. Just to make it clear, I don't hate religious people. I have some religious friends (my town is mostly atheists though). I strive to accept all beliefs and take something from all of them. I'm sorry if I came off as hating religious people. These are just my personal experiences with religion.

 

*This post turned out a bit longer than I expected; If you don't feel like reading it all I included a short summary at the end.


I've had a pretty quiet life when it comes to religion - My mother was raised catholic, and my father was raised protestant, so we celebrated Christmas growing up, and occasionally visited relatives for Easter; That's about the extent of it though, as it was a very non-religious household I grew up in. We never went to church, at least I was never forced to go, if my parents occasionally went. In retrospect though I think they went for the sake of maintaining relationships with people we knew in town rather than a deeper obligation.

Anyway, I've always loved the sciences and very early on I came across the idea of religion and I guess I thought so little of dismissing it as something I didn't have to bother with, but at the same time it wasn't anything I needed to "escape" from because it was already so absent from my life; I grew up respecting people of all faiths and have never felt either threatened or very seriously persuaded by any churches. I was a pretty boring, "good kid" so I think that played a big role in my parents giving me so much freedom and space to become whoever I wanted to be - as long as I was doing my chores and getting good grades and such. So maybe a better way to describe some of my earlier years was more agnostic; there was no pressure.

As I got into high school and religion started becoming a more regularly visited topic; whether it was other people I knew or online, now that the internet had become a thing, I started thinking a lot more about my beliefs or lack there of. I experimented with Deism, the only concept I could rationalize as the type of religion that made sense to me given what I knew about the physical sciences, but eventually I just gave up on that pursuit and solidified my position as an Atheist. This was the first time I officially started identifying myself as one. I never really brought it up with my parents, but if it came up they again adopted a sort of turn the other way mentality so long as I wasn't getting into trouble. And I was fine with that, I had nothing to prove or gain from fighting someone about it. It was a personal identification in my mind and all that mattered is that I believed that's how the world worked and it helped me feel more comfortable with the universe.

These days, I am still an atheist, but after some years of watching people have very nasty religious arguments and witnessing how awful people can be, I've dedicated myself to being the best accepting atheist I can be. I never have any intention of forcing my beliefs and conclusions on someone and I will bring that message to my fellow atheists and welcome theists into this community with open arms if they chose that of their own will. For everyone else: I beleive religion is a personal road everyone must walk, and we walk these paths separately but we all share the experience of walking them. We all find our own way, and it is up to us all to make sure this is done supportivley and without judgement.

We can learn a lot, both intellectually and culturally from openly talking to each other about what we believe and how we came to understand this wonderful world we live in. Attacking others for what they believe, or imposing beliefs on others is where I draw my line as these are the only things that can endanger people or cause harm, but thoughts alone are just thoughts and as long as they are note hateful and only for personal ends, debate is not the right path; Understanding and curious discussion, in good faith, and with the purpose of learning, should be what we all strive for, whatever we believe and whoever we are.


**TLDR Version: I'm an Atheist, but I come bringing a message of acceptance for all peoples and faiths, as long as you aren't hurting anyone.

 

this is my religious views. So long as you're not preventing anyone happiness that doesn't hurt anyone.

 

Me personally, I'm atheist. I used to be pretty heavily involved with the secular community, but now it's just something that I am, and no more. Basically, when ponies came into my life, I had other priorities. I generally don't mind other people's beliefs or lifestyles, just as long as it doesn't affect me. I don't even mind someone trying to 'shove their religion/beliefs down my throat', as long as when I walk away they leave me alone. But I believe there is nothing aside from science, and all that we don't know regarding the universe still has an explanation, but we just haven't discovered it yet. I do not believe in higher powers, unless entropy or strong nuclear are your definitions of higher force =P.

But one thing does bother me, and that's when it DOES affect my life, or other's lives unwillfully. When religious organizations try to get creationism to be taught in schools as an alternative to science, or get schools to say a prayer every morning, or anything like that, I get mad. It's not okay to push your values onto someone else in that way, in my opinion.

If you're religious, and you're cool, then you're my friend.

 

Ok, I hope I don't offend ANYONE by all things I am about to say (and if I do somehow anyway, then a thousand apologies) but anyways here goes...

I do believe in a God. However, I don't like what many people turn God into. I like the idea that God is "Personal". If you are forced to God to Church and taught to love, fear and respect God just because he (or she or it) is God, then that is not true respect so much as playing the part of a coward. "Love me or burn in Hell!!!" is a bit of a paradoxical statement if you ask me. If you truly love God, and aren't just kissing up, then he (or she or it) will enter your heart when the time is right. If not, then no one will ever be able to force you to, no matter how much fear they try to drive into you. That is why I never go to Church, but I pray by myself when I feel God's presence within me because that is more important to me. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell either, we all have our flaws and in the end we will die as equals just as we were born as equals. Also, it's a little pet peeve of mine when people say "he" all the time when referring to a being that is beyond gender (hence why I kept putting "or her or it").