Trivializing rape

People get up in arms because they can't take a joke; people white-knight a lot because it's an issue that has been rampant recently. So when people go all 'Anti-Molestia' and whatnot, half of them don't even know what they're talking about and are just being white knights to look like the good guys.

Rape is a serious issue, but nothing is free from levity. People make 9/11 Jokes because they're funny, if you find them offensive, that's your choice to be offended by it completely. Same goes for any subject matter.

People like to make big deals out of nothing; it's a terrible thing, but something people just have to get used to.

 

Bless this post.

 

This can probably explain why Princess Molestia is seen as a bad thing.

http://cuteosphere.tumblr.com/post/58435250179/there-are-many-other-differences-between-the-two

In games like GTA or Skyrim, murdering random people is not really glorified or at least the works recognize that murdering people is not a socially acceptable thing. In both games you can be arrested or attacked by the law enforcement for committing those crimes.

I think it gets a little more complicated than what I'm explaining, but even the humor that is derived from the violence from those games, or at least Skyrim because I don't really play GTA, falls more in line with dark humor rather than exploititve humor.

Also, as for the phrases you used as examples, I'm sure the only reason those are acceptable is because you are all friends. Try saying you'll hit someone when they don't really know you and see how funny and trivial they take it.

Here's an example of person who made some comments that could be thought of simply trivializing a tragic event:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/tech/social-media/facebook-threat-carter

Also, in casual conversation it seems that people often use hyperbole. It's not not necessarily trivialization though it kind of is. Either way those kinds of saying arent really exploititive humor and fall more in line with dark humor.

- - Auto Merge - -

This can probably explain why Princess Molestia is seen as a bad thing.

http://cuteosphere.tumblr.com/post/58435250179/there-are-many-other-differences-between-the-two

In games like GTA or Skyrim, murdering random people is not really glorified or at least the works recognize that murdering people is not a socially acceptable thing. In both games you can be arrested or attacked by the law enforcement for committing those crimes.

I think it gets a little more complicated than what I'm explaining, but even the humor that is derived from the violence from those games, or at least Skyrim because I don't really play GTA, falls more in line with dark humor rather than exploititve humor.

Also, as for the phrases you used as examples, I'm sure the only reason those are acceptable is because you are all friends. Try saying you'll hit someone when they don't really know you and see how funny and trivial they take it.

Here's an example of person who made some comments that could be thought of simply trivializing a tragic event:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/tech/social-media/facebook-threat-carter

Also, in casual conversation it seems that people often use hyperbole. It's not not necessarily trivialization though it kind of is. Either way those kinds of saying arent really exploititive humor and fall more in line with dark humor.

 

I think things like molestia, concepts that just vaguely float around in the dark parts of the internet are not really directly hurting anyone. They aren't the greatest thing, for the valid reasons you mention, but there are certainly worse things in society we could focus on and have a much greater impact. For instance, if you know someone very well and you are talking about this then there is definitely no issues there. If you are talking to someone or are in company of strangers whom you do not know, and thus are unsure of their sensitivity to such things, then maybe discussing things making light of such serious topics is a bad idea.

It's all about context and using proper judgement.

Edit:
Also, I have more than one very close friends that are rape survivors and so I am very aware of the gravity of the subject. It is a difficult thing to balence freedoms and protections, and I believe that the best approach is to create designated places where people know they can be safe and designated places where people know they can express themselves without any limitation, and the key in either or a mix of the two is to have clear rules designating these areas. What I mean by areas is more tied to internet-context such as here on everypony for example. I would support fully a decision to limit mention of adult/questionable content like molestia to only certain forums or chatrooms, thereby making it clear to users ahead of time where they should avoid if that makes them uncomfortable, and vice-versa for people seeking that discussion.

 

I treat rape jokes like I do dead baby jokes. They're funny in a wrong way.

 

It doesn't really matter if it's fiction and I'm not sure you're making a clear distinction between dark humor and exploitive humor or how it cam effect people. It goes way beyond just trivializing something. To trivialize something means to not take something seriously. In this case you're comparing Molestia rape jokes to casual murder and animal abuse. In most games that I know of, casual murder is not ever glorified. It's something you can do, sure, but at worst most mainstream games remain neutral about it, rather than make light of it or treat you as the good guy for gunning down a bunch of harmless civilians. The same goes for straight up animal abuse. Hunting animals and killing one in self-defense, I don't think is considered the same as animal abuse, so games like Skyrim and AC3 don't really trivialize it (skyrim has at least one quests where animal fighting is defintely treated as an aweful thing)

The problem people have with Molestia is that she glorifies rape and molestation. It isn't used ironically or satirically, the raping and molestation is the joke and people feel that normalizes and reinforces the behavior and belief that this is okay.

Here's a pretty good summation of why rape jokes aren't really in good taste.


http://www.policymic.com/articles/44235/why-rape-jokes-are-never-funny


I think you might also be simplifying humor way too much, at least for this type of discussion and why people have a problem with Molestia. Humor and why something is funny isn't so much just the content but it's how it is presented and the culture surrounding it. For example, a man in drag comedy sketch would be, probably, more universally accepted when the man is trying to pass as a woman, trying to do stereotypically feminine things. It might even be funnier if all the men were fooled but the women could see right through him or at least found "her" odd. That's because this whole situation is using cross dressing as a way to comment on gender stereotypes. If the situation was just that the guy was trying to pass as a woman and that was the joke, then we might have problems. If all there was to the joke was that a man put on a dress and the audience is expected to laugh at that, no commentary or satire or anything, I think that could be seen as exploitative humor since the joke is that he's a cross-dresser.


With Molestia, again, the joke is being made that rape is sexy. That Molestia isn't a bad person (Pony, whatever) not even despite of the rape, but some comics almost depict her as good because of the rape.

As for games, the fact that murdering people is treated as "wrong" or at least unacceptable behavior at least keeps it away from being exploitative. This is why games like Custer's Revenge are seen as being in bad tastes, because the entire goal of the game is rape a Native American woman. There was a game called Death Race 2000, I think, where the goal of it was to run over people. It got a lot of flak because it glorified vehicular homicide and even though it was just a game, vehicular homicide isn't really a thing people like. Does GTA award points or make it a goal to just run over people?

Extra Credits kinda tackled an issue similar to this in a look at Call of Juarez: The Cartel, where one of the achievements was to kill 50 African-American men. I suggest watching it.

http://youtu.be/W0ci6rYOleM


You also can't assume that just because something doesn't effect you on a personal level doesn't mean it can't have an effect on society. I agree that playing violent video games don't make you a violent person, or that reading Molestia will make you a rapist, that's insane. But it's when you start looking at these fictional atrocities, such as mass murder, rape, etc. and say that it is acceptable, is when most people start to identify a problem. As pointed out in the comic in my first post, some fans of Molestia don't see her actions as bad and even try to justify or excuse it. This is very similar to saying that it's okay to hit someone because "they had it coming", they deserved it for not complying, or because its for their own good.


Also, saying "ignore it and you'll be fine" is like saying just "ignore black face". It's really hard to ignore something when it's causing thousands of people to laugh at you. It is the belief of many that a person should not have to go out of their way to not be laughed at.


Edit: I also want to state that while I agree with many of the views I mentioned, I'm not with the Down With Molestia movement. OP asked why people are offended specifally at Molestia and I'm trying to explain that as best I could. Humor is rarely black and white and so it's totally reasonable for some people to be okay with something and others not to be. But humor often relies on sympathy and empathy, which rape jokes don't usually invoke.

 

[MENTION=6391]Xander[/MENTION]: Unless that woman is a psychologist, I'm not really going to call that a valid excuse for the argument. It seems more like biased journalism judging from the way it's written.

Women don't report rape because of one of two things: It's humiliating and they don't want to admit that fact, and they feel that if they admit it, they're weak because they couldn't handle their own problems.

Rape jokes aren't the guys who grope and manhandle women whenever they say something wrong, rapists are. People who overreact to jokes are part of the problem. Making a big deal out of nothing is counterintuitive. Yes, Columbine, 9/11, Rape, the Holocaust, Hitler, etc. were all terrible tragedies that happened to people (Or person with Rape) but that's the point; humour is meant to add a positive side to what would normally be an almost completely negative side.

Hitler ordered the executions of millions of jews, gays, disabled people, gypsies, etc. He did unspeakable things and killed himself at the end of it. What do we do?

Make parody videos of him making a fool of himself in a bunker with his adorable psychotic friends, Fegelein, and Heinrich Himmler, who is arguably even worse than Hitler.

You don't see the sons/grandsons/great grandsons/daughters of these people saying 'That's totally offensive and I HAVE to take it offensively because x family member was involved.' They go along with it until it goes too far.

People are going to be people; they will always try to find humour in a subject that otherwise really has none. For some people who were hurt like that, (Like me) it helps wonders with coping. For most, yeah, they do get offended. But that's their choice.

Molestia doesn't glorify rape, the people who want to attack it and take it down just think it is. That's all there is to it.

 

There's a lot wrong with this stance.

For one, the holocaust and 9/11 are things in the past that have already been said and done with.
Rape on the other hand happens every 2 minutes in the United States, so for reference you have zero clue who's been a victim of sexual assault.

To put this into perspective, it's kind of like walking up to somebody, using the analogies you've provided, that has just heard about their family member dying in the 9/11 attacks and making one right in front of them.

People will be people amirite?

You see where I'm going with this don't you?

The point is, instead of justifying it with the human nature argument, which is ironically how a lot of sexual assault is defended ("Boys will be boys";"People will be people"), you could just not make the jokes out of the courtesy.

Now I'm not here to be the fun police but, if somebody tells you a joke offends them, and you keep going, odds are that you're a giant ass.

Now that's only part of the problem.
The other part is the rape culture argument which I'm sure you've all heard people rant on and on about on tumblr or something or some other, but allow me to sum it up for you, sadly though, I'm not the most knowledgeable on the subject, so consider my version abridged.

Basically the concept is that when people make rape jokes and so on and so forth, its generally received in the same manner as any other joke, for the most part. This gives it the aura of normality that gives people the idea that rape is okay, it's a normal thing.

People will be people, amirite?


-Rolls up a newspaper and smack Saikyo-

Stop that.

 

Zephyr, you make some good points about the culture surrounding rape and I was just about to chime in to say that this:

"Women don't report rape because of one of two things: It's humiliating and they don't want to admit that fact, and they feel that if they admit it, they're weak because they couldn't handle their own problems."

This is what many would argue is the problem. That we live in a society where women would be humiliated and feel weak to report a crime. I actually think it's a bit foolish to say just because you don't like the way that the person who wrote that article argued (impassioned) that we can say that her argument isn't valid or that because she isn't a psychologist that she doesn't make any good points. This is the problem she addresses:

"Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as ‘just the way things are.’"

Rape is a serious crime that often goes unreported, and the DWM people would argue that comics like Molestia are part of the problem of normalizing rape culture.


"Yes, Columbine, 9/11, Rape, the Holocaust, Hitler, etc. were all terrible tragedies that happened to people (Or person with Rape) but that's the point; humour is meant to add a positive side to what would normally be an almost completely negative side.

Hitler ordered the executions of millions of jews, gays, disabled people, gypsies, etc. He did unspeakable things and killed himself at the end of it. What do we do?

Make parody videos of him making a fool of himself in a bunker with his adorable psychotic friends, Fegelein, and Heinrich Himmler, who is arguably even worse than Hitler."

Do you think that the subject matter of the joke and the delivery are the same thing? The main difference between the examples you are giving and Molestia is that we make fun of Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Himmler, etc. because we hate them. You're absolutely right that making fun of someone who is a legit monster can help ease the pain but that's is not what is happening with Molestia. Take for example with how South Park dealt with 9/11 in their first episode after the tragedy, they portrayed Osama Bin Laden as a Looney Tune-esque character who not only was a moron, but also made tons of joke's at his expense.

Now imagine a work that starred Osama Bin Laden that portrayed him as a hero, as a loveable scamp for doing all the things that he did. Imagine a work that showed Hitler in a positive light for trying to commit genocide. I doubt too many people would find those funny.

"Molestia doesn't glorify rape, the people who want to attack it and take it down just think it is. That's all there is to it."

I read Molestia and to say that it doesn't glorify rape I think just misses the point of some of the comics. Take a look at this comic (it's a Molestia comic so view with some discretion). What is the joke here? It starts with Molestia assuring us she doesn't mind Luna getting more fan mail than her, then shows us that she is by sexually assaulting the mail pony, who she think she is holding out on her. The art style this is done in is comical, with large eyes and very expressive faces. The mail pony is terrified but more in a Rocko's Modern Life way than a more realistic depiction. The hat on the banana I think is meant to take away some of the levity of the situation, to make it more humorous. The fact that it uses a banana is meant to make the whole situation more funny. Yet, the punchline here is that someone is going to be sexually assaulted. People read Molestia to see what "zany" thing she does next, which usually involves stuff like this and thus kind of glorifies the rape culture.

 

Racism is an ongoing issue, as is murder, theft, violence, etc. and people make jokes about them all the time.

It's a combination of ignorance, lack of respect for the victims, and overall lack of general action for people to take any action against it.

If I pop a racist joke, will that inspire people to be racist? If I pop a murder or theft joke, are people going to think murder or theft is OK?

If they're smart and have minds of their own, no; the argument that rape jokes make rape seem okay is ridiculous, because if that were true, we'd have a lot more rapes for one. We'd also have a lot more murders, thefts, assaults, etc, because hey, a joke is an invitation to kill, rape and steal, right?

I see where you're going with this, but I prefer to think from the logic of a logical person, not from someone who will take a joke literally.

​

And for the record, I was a victim of sexual assault.

But I don't take rape jokes as invitation to rape me or other people. I take them as jokes, like people should.

Racists are racists because their parents and friends teach them to be racist; murderers, rapists, and thieves kill, rape, and steal because they don't get caught and want to feel in control. The primordial human urge is to control and have power over other people, and rape is an easy way to do this, right next to murder. Taking worldly possessions is also an easy way to feel in power. It's been that way since the beginning of recorded history.

Jokes don't make murderers, rapists, or thieves. People make murderers, rapists, and thieves. And I, personally, feel that people who take offense to rape jokes have every right to be offended, don't get me wrong.

I personally just think it's entirely stupid to think that people are actually promoting rape and crime in general. When someone tells a joke, they aren't telling you to go kill your neighbour's dog, or steal some lady's purse. They are intentionally stretching a valid issue and adding humour to it, which I find to be quite relieving in the long run.

And that newspaper hurt ; ~;

 

I.e. if you take a joke seriously, you're doing it wrong. If you don't find it funny, you're not the intended recipient. Everyone has things they find amusing as well as things that offend them. The beauty of comedy is there are jokes to appeal to anyone and everyone, but not all jokes are for everyone.

There are many hugely popular stand-up comics who people die laughing at, but I've never found a single thing they said amusing, just because I find the style dumb or it's just not my kind of humor (though those may be the same thing). It's all relative.

 

What is your opinion on black face? If you don't mind me asking.

 

Hm, controversial.

 

I think Black Face is incomparible to rape jokes.

That was popular when our culture was predominantly racist; most people viewed black people as less than human; nobody thinks rape victims are less than human. If you notice, Black Face isn't all that around any more.

 

Dunno. I've never really thought about it. It's not exactly something that comes up a lot these days.

I will say, though, that I loved the It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia episode about black face.

 

I find a lot of 'wrong' things funny. Guess it just depends on the person. I wouldn't go around spoiling the fun for everyone unless it actually encouraged and glamourised a negative act that is harmful to others.

But to me, it's all harmless fun.

 

All those times I said "get raped" to other gamers online...

 

I wonder why that is. Is it because society decided that those kinds of jokes were unacceptable? When people do black face now, it tends to make a lot of people angry.

The point of me bringing this up is to respond specifically to this:

"I.e. if you take a joke seriously, you're doing it wrong. If you don't find it funny, you're not the intended recipient. Everyone has things they find amusing as well as things that offend them. The beauty of comedy is there are jokes to appeal to anyone and everyone, but not all jokes are for everyone."

Which seems to suggest that if you are offended by comedy then it's your fault. You're doing it wrong, afterall. Black Face is a comic practice that most people don't accept anymore, and that lots of people find offensive. If you truly believe that comedy is universally positive and it just depends on the intended listener without exception, then you must find black face as acceptable humor. If you don't find it acceptable, then that means there are exceptions to the rules and that not all humor can hide safely behind the "don't take it seriously" veil.


Not all jokes are funny and not all jokes are positive and I'm glad you and I agree that people who are offended by rape jokes have a right to be. However, humor can have a normalizing effect on people who might already hold certain prejudices, especially if the group is not normally recognized as not okay to discriminate against.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/humor-sapiens/201107/does-racist-humor-promote-racism

"Previous studies by Ford and others on sexist humor showed the same pattern. People who are sexist to begin with and enjoy sexist jokes show higher tolerance for sexist events, tend to accept rape myths, and tend to show greater willingness to discriminate against women."

So things like rape jokes and Molestia might not turn a person from non-rapist to rapist, but it has a high chance of reinforcing things like sexism and promoting rape culture. Maybe someday, when our society isn't so sexist we won't see rape jokes like Molestia anymore, but in the minds of many people that won't start unless people start to speak up.

EDIT: The mindset for a lot of people is that rape jokes promote rape culture. Rape culture leads to things like this:

http://act.weareultraviolet.org/act/steubenville_project_future

Of course, this relies on your belief that jokes are not inconsequential. That like all words and works, that they can have a powerful effect on society. If that is something you don't believe then this conversation is just going to go back and forth without accomplishing anything.