Ferguson protest/coup

It's doubtful. If it were true, the police would have released all the information immediately rather than reflexively changing the story every 3 minutes.

We'll never know.

 

Basically sums up my feelings.
WARNING: Contains language.
[video=youtube;KUdHIatS36A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A[/video]

 

So why does the black community continually rally around hoodlums and followv behind race-baiting shysters like Jesse and Al? Cops are ********, and they like shooting everyone. But these people are so deadset in seeing racism in everything.

 

You might see those people as race-baiting, but we're talking about a community that was given so few tools to start with in America and still built lives from the ground up - no, from deeper than that, from six feet underground and up. The simple fact is that cops shoot more black people than white people. The more complicated fact is that there are a lot of reasons why they do so and if you say we should ignore those reasons in favor just saying, "Cops are crazy," (which not all cops are) then you're a part of the problem.

There IS racism in this (how much can be contested, but race is linked with economics which is linked with crime, so you do the math); check the video @Vulpine Taco posted, where John Oliver says that every part of the world for all of human history has encountered racism. So many of the foundations of this country were placed directly on top of racism, such that it is impossible to see two people of different races and not see racism at work in America. It is there. If you're sick of hearing about it, imagine how sick some people are of living with it. Problems don't just go away magically because you think they should; people have to fight an uphill battle in order for that to happen.

 

Young black men. I don't think women and old people factor into that cop statistic. So are cops sexist and ageist too? As long as we're on statistics, young black men commit this nation's majority of crimes, and a good percentage of those crimes are on other young black men. Also cops don't shoot young black men out of hatred, they shoot them out of profiling. If they walk up on a car with a young black woman or an old black man, they will react differently than they will a young black man. That's called playing the odds, and if that's racism, we are all apparently racist. Also, what is the young black man wearing? What kind of car is he driving? What music is he listening to? Smooth jazz or gangsta rap which champions ignorant thugs? If you want to fix the proble, telling people to stop profiling and being racists solves nothing. The difference between you and a cop is that when you see someb kid walking towards you dressed like a thug, the cop has a gun and you don't. Change the whole problem by shaming the thug sub-culture. Just listen to Bill Cosby and Chris Rock talk about it. Saying that America is a racist country is useless grandstanding. And on the subject of minorities, why does racism only seem to affect blacks and hispanics. Asians and Jews account for less people, but you don't see cops profiling them. Again, do cops just hate black people, or are they playing the odds, just like we ALL do?

 

You black men commit the majority of crime says one publication. Then another says they don't. Depends who you ask.

Shooting someone based on profiling is racist. Well that guy is black and has baggy pants. Better get this one quick before he commits a crime.

Say a cop sees a white man enter a school, restaurant, airport, movie theater. You know someplace public. I say we profile him. Who knows what he might be planning. You know white people like mass shootings.

Why blacks and Hispanics, because it's America. It's all location dependent. In japan you have the Japanese being racist towards others. A black guy in china had parents pulling their kids out of his class because they saw how Americans depicted him.

 

[video=youtube;srmxOzyzy2A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srmxOzyzy2A[/video]

[video=youtube;eUi2A6tUYQk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUi2A6tUYQk[/video]

 

First you say that they shoot young black men because they're profiling, but then you say that fighting against profiling solves nothing. What I'm hearing is that you're not actually concerned about what's happening. You can call it useless grandstanding if you like, but just because we ALL do it to some degree (not arguing that point, you'll note) then does that make it ethical? Does that make it right? A human life, any human life, is worth more than a material possession from a convenience store.

Funny how you say we don't see Asians or Jews being profiled by government figures, but we've seen exactly that throughout history. Are you familiar with Japanese Internment? Oh, and lets not even get started on Antisemitism. Most people nowadays agree those things were wrong; now, lets imagine who will be on the right side of history in cases like that of Ferguson.

Young black men cannot help being born young black men. Their race itself does not cause them to commit crimes; the way they're nurtured by our society does, and so few people seem to be interested in changing that. Just because a person wears certain clothes or listens to certain music does not make them a criminal; correlation does not equal causation. Racial profiling certainly doesn't help the problem.

 

I'm saying that cops are a-holes with guns who have had a self-preservation complex drummed into them.

And yes, you do profile. If you're human, than you profile. When you see a chihuahua and a pit bull, which one do you think twice about before petting. If you're walking down a dark street at night and see a young black man in a hoodie and a old black man in a straw hat, who do you stay away from?

- - Auto Merge - -

Yes, I said that cops are more PRONE to shoot young black men because they're profiling, and yes, fighting against profiling solves nothing. Why? Because you cannot fight profiling because it is human nature. Fight officers' exaggerated use of force because that is something you can solve, but you cannot keep people from profiling. And guess what? Profiling isn't a bad thing either. According to the Census Bureau, African Americans make up 13.2% of the population. According to the FBI, African Americans commit 28.1% of crimes. That is a DISPROPORTIONATE amount of crime committed by a minority of people. Do you think police officers hate black people or playing the odds? So are you going to blame the police for playing the odds? I blame them for being over-zealous and looking for excuses to use their guns, but I don't think the Ferguson shooting was racially motivated. I think it was zeal-motivated. I think that cops are people who want to shoot guns, so they'll look for dumb excuses. But is this cop some guy who wants to shoot black people? No! He's a guy who just wants to shoot people in general!

First, I'm concerned about Ferguson because the town's black population is rioting for the wrong reasons and making a thug out to be a saint. Second, I'm concerned that a large part of the black community thinks that being a thug is cool, and that rap culture is feeding glorified criminal images to young kids and profiting from it. What's worse? One dead kid or thousands caused by gang violence. Look at pictures of that kid too - the ones of him throwing gang signs. Try and imagine how many other kids there are like him who think it's cool to be a criminal.

Is this 1942? Seen any Japanese internment camps around lately? Don't try and shift the subject from societal violence to broad bigotry. Everyone will always hate everyone else. You can't get rid of that. Also while I can't find a reliable statistic on Jew-committed crimes, Asians commit an average of 1.19% of the crimes and make up 5.3% of the population. So I'll ask you again: why, when you have Blacks, Jews, Hispanics, and Asians as minorities, do cops only seem to hate Blacks and Hispanics? On the whole, I'd say that the world over, Jews are a lot more hated than Blacks, so why aren't cops gunning down people wearing yarmulkes?

But young black men can help dressing like thugs: wearing hoodies at night, sagging their pants, glaring at everyone, and trying to seem tough.

Exactly! So let's change that first. Are you okay with gangsta culture? Do you think it's good to glorify criminals? How about we change the crime statistics and put more news emphasis on gang violence instead of these limited occasions where cops get too trigger-happy. That's a separate matter entirely.

 

Hawk, you're right. I profile all the time.

I see a unknown item in the road I automatically assume it is an IED.

I see a white man walk into my job I assume he's gonna shoot up the place. Makes work Rey stressful.

I profile artist that draw loli or shota, all of them are child molesters. They have to be with content like that.

I profile weeping willows as well. Can you believe they let their branches hang so low. I see a weeping willow and I immediately cross the street. I feel safe around pines though. Pines don't have appear harmful at all.

 

Allow me to clarify something for you:

1. The racism in this situation is in the social state of these young black people getting shot. Call it "playing the odds" but consider that it is not always fair to play the game if the rules are unfair in the first place. For more on that, see my next comment response to your quote below.

2. No one is arguing that this cop (and some of his fellow cops) don't have serious issues. Those issues of having disproportionate military equipment for their jobs and using disproportionate forceful measures when carrying out their jobs are not being argued, at least not by me. But you seem to be very ignorant of what it's like to be a black man in America, and that kind of ignorance is not appreciated here.

One day, the Ferguson riots will be just another historic event, like the ones we've talked about involving Jewish or Asian people. The difference is, one of them is happening now. The reason why, which seems to be what we're both interested in, isn't that hard to figure out.

A lot of the black poverty in America was exacerbated around the end of WWII. Soldiers came home and there was a government plan in effect to house all of them; the creation of suburban housing was a rather novel idea at the time and was used to find homes for white soldiers. Not so the black soldiers. They were moved, along with their families, into urban housing projects that were frequently so terribly built or so unfinished that the soldiers went straight from war to poverty. This is where the phrase "the projects" comes from and this is why a lot of black neighborhoods have developed, over the years, into places of crime. Whenever a black person tried to move out of that neighborhood and into one of the white suburban neighborhoods, the white people left due to the falling property prices. Thus, few black families escaped poverty entirely. This is where the term "white flight" comes from.

If you knew all of that, you ought to know this, too: it is not the fault of young black people that they are born into bad neighborhoods. This is a national problem that we should treat with tact and not violence. It is unfair to blame a young black man for his own shooting just because he was dressed a certain way, and you know it.

My point was that when you're raised a certain way, that's how you act. The hoodies and saggy pants don't make you a criminal, they make you a guy who likes hoodies and saggy pants.

Also, on the topic of glares: I've had extensive conversations with my black roommate, a native of Chicago who is sitting on the couch next to me as I write this, and the whole "glare" is really more of a combination of a hurtful culture and a defensive mechanism. First, a lot of pressure is put on black men to seem tough, and so they mostly act that way because they want to fit in. All people do similar things like that, and ending those things is a good aim. However, another real fear is the threat of violence: that, if you're living in a bad area, which a lot of black people in America do, then you might be a target for muggings or other such crimes like my roommate's father was last month. They're not doing it to upset you personally, man, they're doing it because that's the sort of environment they're coming from.

Am I okay with "gangsta culture?" I guess I have specific gripes about specific issues, but I especially don't allow my actions towards people to be affected by judgements based on the way they dress. Do I "agree that it's good to glorify criminals?" Not as a whole, but criminals are all people. I don't glorify crimes. As for gang violence, it's in the news plenty where I'm from (Chicago area, Illinois) and so I don't really see what your point is. Can trigger-happy cops and gang violence not both be legitimate issues? I feel they can.

EDIT: You seem to want to say, "Black people commit more crimes, so they should be treated as such, case closed, nothing to see here," but you aren't having much sensitivity as to why they commit more crimes. That is the nature of your comments that has been so inflammatory.

 

Are you black, Dilly? Then you too are woefully unaware of what it feel like to be a black person in America. Your self-righteousness offends me.

- - Auto Merge - -

Life is unfair. The world is unfair. It is unfair that for some reason, gangsta culture grew around the black community, and now it's being used to market music, clothing, and a way of life. What can be done? You and I can do nothing. Cops can be taught to be less instinctual - not get so easily scared and prone to pull their weapons - and they can also be taught that their guns aren't toys, and killing someone isn't a mark of glory. But I would still tell cops to look for suspicious people. As unfair as it is, young black men are a small percentage of another small percentage, yet they are committing a high percentage of crimes. If they dress like people who would commit crimes, they are immediately suspicious. It sounds cold, but it's true. Statistically speaking, they are automatically suspicious. The rap/hip-hop ******* tha Police culture that's been so popular in their demographic has screwed them over, and that, I think is the true tragedy because it is very hard and it takes a very long time to change the image of a group.

Again, I don't think the cop shot the kid because he hated black people, and I think that the protesters are rioting because they think it's the case. And this is not at all analogous to Jews and Asians. Jews were put in concentration camps in the 30-40's in different countries, and the Japanese - not all Asians - were put in concentrations camps of a lesser degree here also in the 30-40's. This is to say, they faced governmental oppression. Blacks in America also faced governmental oppression in the past, but now it is illegal. At the slightest hint of it, such oppression makes national news. This is no racial watershed moment. It's a trigger happy cop moment, and they happen all the time, but when they happen to a black person, they make the news. When a trigger happy cop shoots a white kid, it makes local news, the cop is put on paid leave, and then he goes back to work. You want to see injustice, let's look at trigger happy cops and not just trigger happy cops who pull the trigger on one skin color. Cops are a-holes and they want to shoot everyone, given the opportunity.

Yes, I know about the creation of governmental housing and "de-gentrification" as it were. I also know the cure for bad neighborhoods on the long run. Families in those neighborhoods need to stay together, and people who can't afford kids shouldn't have kids. In 2012, 67% of all black children lived in single-parent homes. Children need role models and parents who set good examples for them. When a child doesn't have a complete family, they are likely to seek that familial feeling somewhere else, such as a gang. If families stick together and imbue their children - who they can provide for - with strong moral guidance, they are more likely to stay away from drugs and violence.

If I was black and living in the inner-city, I'd be fully aware that if I were to were a hoodie and saggy pants, other people might see me as looking threatening, so I just would wear clothes that make me look less threatening. Yes, I know that anyone should be allowed to wear whatever they want, but it's not the smartest thing to do all the time. Again, this sounds callous, but I'm just trying to think purely logically.

Yes, criminals are people too, and they should be treated with the respect that is their right as humans, but when traits people pick up in prison culture become desirable out of prison, by children who look up to convicts as you would a war-hero, then things have gone too far.

And again, I'm not arguing that cops need to be tempered. All I'm saying is that cops aren't racists. They're just trigger-happy in areas of high crime. Let's teach cops to think critically instead of immediately acting on animal instincts and going for their guns. I don't know what brought the cop to shoot the kid, but I did hear on the news that the guy had received a few positive citations, so he can't be a rookie, and I don't think he's a racist sociopath who just decided he'd shoot a black kid for no reason. All I can imagine is that the reports about the kid assaulting him were true. But since there's no camera footage, it's just conjecture on my part.

And yes, black people do commit more crimes, so young black people - the people who commit the majority of crimes - should be treated that way if you don't know them. If I see a big bald guy with tattoos covering his body, I'm gonna keep my guard up when I walk near him. I'll do the same for a young black kid who has a mean look on his face. There are a large VARIETY of factors.

-Is he dressed well?
-Is he eyeing me?
-Can I see his hands?
-Is he busily eyeing other people?

If I was a racist, I would be wary of all black people, and I'm not. You seem desperate to paint me as a racist, by the way.

- - Auto Merge - -

Your string of fallacies and use of humor to mock my argument lost you nearly all of your credibility.

 

My use of fallacies and humor is used to mock your argument because i don't consider it a valid one. It looks to me as if you don't like young black men based on a series of observations.

But if these observations fuel you to decide if a person is a criminal or not then mine are valid too. At least the loli one. Not the others, I guess. I can't remember them.

 

You disregard statistics then? You think that everyone has an equal chance of hurting you? How silly.

 

You read one report that says "young black men terror of America" and believe it. Do you disregard others that say the opposite?

And what about whitey and their school shootings. Do you profile them as well?

Sure I have an equal chance of being hurt by anyone. Like anyone can do anything for any reason.

Do you think a young black man poses more of a threat to you then others?

Did you just watch Fox News for a week? So many questions.

 

I quoted the FBI by saying that young black men commit the majority of crimes in America in proportion to their small population, as quoted from the Census Bureau. Please edit your post and remove the quotes from that first sentence too because that implies that you are directly quoting me, which you are not.

Secondly, you say "whitey" which some would see as a racial slur. This makes you a hypocrite.

No you don't have an equal chance of being hurt by anyone. Look at the statistics I gave you.

Yes, a young black man statistically poses a greater threat because numbers say so. Could you provide empirical data to back up your point that every person, regardless of race, gender, and background is no more likely than any other to commit a crime.

You attempt to create a straw man by asking if I have been brainwashed. You imply that Fox is somehow a racist organization. Please provide documentation to back up your point that Fox is trying to brainwash people into being scared of black people.

Let me summarize your failures to prove me wrong:

Straw Man fallacy and misquotation.

Red Herring and Non Sequitur.

Half Truth.

Loaded Question.

Ad Hominem.

 

Huh, you know, I just checked and I am not, in fact, black.

But see, the difference is that I try to be understanding. You're right; I'll never know firsthand what it's like to be black in America. Too true. But I can speak with black people respectfully, not lump them all together as a giant group of thugs who all wear the same clothes and all listen to the same music, and not makes insulting inferences about those clothes and that music under the guise of "playing the odds." That would be wrong of me.

I expected you to be offended by this. The people on your side of this argument usually are because you don't want to be seen as having anything to do with the problem, when you are, in fact, exacerbating it and not helping it. You're being unfairly judgemental of black people, and in case you haven't noticed I am not the onloy person here that you have bothered in that way. Maybe you ought to give your own words a deeper evaluation, because if someone were to call you a racist at this point, I believe you would entirely deserve it.

I just don't think wearing a hoodie is evidence of a crime. Again, when somebody robs a convenience store, you arrest them, but as you say the cop should not have been so quick to jump to lethal force. You and I are in partial agreement and partial disagreement. But this isn't even really about that anymore; this conversation has taken a turn and it has become about you. You say we can do nothing, but I say we can start by not being being so judgemental.

I would not go so far as to say that this situation is not at all analogous to problems faced by other groups around the world, especially considering that the point of that analogy was that the roots of such problems run very deep.

Interesting idea, but I put it to you that the reason why I brought this up is that this issue is more complicated than it seems and you can't just blame an entire co-culture/race for their own economic status. Seems to me like you're implying "it is the fault of black people that they have not already solved their own poverty." Does my saying that offend you?

You're right, it is callous.

I can agree that there is much about this situation that we may never know.

I'm not desperate to paint you as anything, you're proving yourself to be discriminatory all by yourself without any help from me. You even came close to admitting it earlier under the guise of "we all do it" when we were talking about profiling, except not everyone uses racial profiles when making decisions, that's something only you have been talking about doing. And now you're upset because you look like the racist one in this argument?

EDIT: And you did, just at the end there, skate perilously close to the "I'm not racist because I have black friends" argument which has been so popularized. Just because you don't have something against all black people doesn't necessarily mean you aren't discriminating against a certain demographic of black people based on their race and economic status. For that reason, I'm not sure I personally would categorize you as a racist, because the offensiveness of your comments could not be summed up through that descriptor alone.