Does it really matter whose fault it was? Wouldn't it be much better to try and prevent this from happening again in the future instead of blaming people?
I believe in personal responsibility for actions and choices. Were I to ever kill myself, you can be damn sure that I was solely responsible for the choice, just like anybody who kills themselves is. - - Auto Merge - - People choose to kill themselves for lots of reasons. Maybe they got dumped. Maybe they got fired. Maybe they got diagnosed with some kind of illness. By your logic, the ex-significant others, former bosses, and doctors that give unpleasant diagnoses in those cases are all guilty of murder. I'd also like to point out that human beings are not as weak and fragile as you seem to think they are. I'm not saying that people don't have a breaking point, I'm just saying that humans designed to deal with physical and mental stresses that would kill most other creatures. The problem is that people aren't being taught to use that strength. - - Auto Merge - - That's the problem, isn't it? How do you prevent this from happening again if people can't agree on what caused it in the first place? Some people are saying that this was caused by bullying, and that Smith was just another innocent victim driven to the edge by cruelty. They believe that the solution is to crack down on bullying. I contend that this was a decision made by a kid who wasn't adequately prepared to deal with the real world, and chose to leave the world on his own terms. I believe the solution is to make sure kids are taught the skills they need to cope with the cruelty of others, and to stand up for themselves.
Unfortunately, the "everything's about 'personal responsibility'" attitude--taking the belief in it to an extreme--is all too common, and leads to people who need real community to rally around them instead being victim-blamed and left in the lurch; this kid (and me) included. For that matter, it also leads to such things as poor people dying for lack of health care coverage and stifled socioeconomic mobility. All I can do is hope that you one day come to the truth. I'd be more than happy to provide the studies and papers on the topic to get you started on that path.
Are you honestly telling me that you believe over-reliance on others is somehow a good thing? Also, what the hell does socioeconomic status have to do with personal responsibility? I'm going to take a shot in the dark here, and guess that you're not really talking about Smith at all. I'm guessing that you've thought about suicide in the past (maybe even attempted it?), and now you're offended that I'm implying that people are responsible for their own thoughts, feelings, and choices. Then again, I could be way off. Maybe you honestly believe that people are somehow obligated to care about the well-being of total strangers. The thing is, that's not how the real world works. People are bastards. They have always been bastards. They will always be bastards. Life's a ***** and then you die.
In response to both of you: I think that Ridley is right about that you need to be able to fend for yourself. Because people are jerks, people aren't always going to get what they deserve in this life, and they will get away with murder (literally and figuratively). If you think otherwise, you're sorta living in a totally different world than the rest of us. But I do think that people should try to take care of strangers. It happens often enough. Just because people are jerks doesn't mean other people aren't awesomely nice sometimes. And I think we should try to help one another as much as we can to make the world a better place. BUT, coming back to the first point, you can't EXPECT someone to fly in and save the day when you're in trouble. It doesn't just happen like that every time, and if you expect someone else to fix all your problems for you, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Since socioeconomic status was brought up, honestly I think the same thing applies. Sure, it's a GOOD thing for the government or a nonprofit organization to help the poor. But when you do that, you take the responsibility for the poor peoples' situation away from the poor people, regardless of how they got there, and put it on the shoulders of the people who have a lot of money, regardless of how they got it. Sure there are plenty of people who became poor because they are unemployed. But there plenty of people who are poor because they like being beggars, or they don't care enough about themselves or their family to try to work. And sure, there are a few people who got rich from inheritance, or from being dishonest. But there are plenty of people who got rich from working harder, or being smarter or more innovative than other people. The same thing applies to this situation. There will be the people who actually had mental breakdowns, and went insane and commited suicide. But there are other people who don't know how to handle stress, or rejection, or failure, or bullying, or bad news; you get the idea. The only way they can think of to deal with it is to kill themselves, which is short-sighted and sad. But it is ultimately due to lack of knowledge and/or support, which are both things they can and should go looking for when tragedy occurs. If they didn't, and they chose to instead wallow in their sadness and sing deeper and deeper until they couldn't see any other way, well, there is no way for anyone to help them. And finally, the responsibility of the trolls in this situation. Yes, they were being cruel. Yes, they are partially responsible. But it's kind of silly to say they should be charged with anything. As Ridley said, they may have created an unpleasant situation for a person, but they certainly didn't make him go onto youtube and look at the comments, or make him jump in front of a train. In fact, the worst comments aside, a lot of those commenters probably moved right to the next video and forgot that one existed the next day.
No man or woman is an island. Whether the truth is realized or not, doesn't make it any less the truth: we are all dependent on one another for the vast, vast majority of positive things in our lives. In other for you to have a job, you depend on others being willing to give you a chance at said job. In order for an entrepreneurial endeavor of yours to be successful, you must have customers willing to give your products/services a chance. In order to have friends, you must have people WILLING to be your friend. Heck, in order to get from point A to point B, you depend on roads others built and street lights and traffic lights others installed. Others built your car/truck/bicycle/motorcycle/scooter/whatever. Others drive the buses and conduct the trains and fly the planes. The list goes on and on, but the biggest fact--and the one you're missing--is the simple fact that humans, being social animals, depend on each other for our mental health and our sanity. Like I said before, I'd be happy to provide you the studies, papers, and articles backing me up on this. It's rock-hard science. In many countries (especially good old 'merica), there's an epidemic of "personal responsibility trolls" who use that exact two-word phrase to justify taking a flamethrower to the social safety net, which drastically stifles the socioeconomic mobility of the poor and underclass. I am offended, because your beliefs fly in the face of scientific fact. I do, as any decent person does. The Golden Rule is golden for a reason. Ain't just a moral for the religious, either: the data show that the countries, regions, and cities that have the lowest poverty rates, smartest populaces, lowest crime rates, happiest citizens, highest access to high technology, healthiest populaces, et cetera--basically, the most successful countries on Earth--tend to be the ones that embrace the Golden Rule in their policy decisions. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Canada (even despite Harper's damage), Australia (even despite Abbutt's damage), New Zealand, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Austria, for starters. The U.S. states with actual sane people at the helm also have the same things going on: California (turns out, what they had to do was dump 'Ahnold', and they could finally get into the 21st Century), Oregon, Washington, New York, Massachusetts, Delaware, Maryland, Connecticut, Rhode Island, and, last but certainly not least, good ol' Vermont, home to one of my personal heroes, Senator Bernie Sanders. Yes, people are, for the most part. That's why it's up to the few GOOD people in the world to rise above that and not be, as you say, "bastards". Yes, responsibility is partially taken away, and rightly so--the vast majority of poor people are not poor because of themselves. They are poor because of external circumstances. The right thing to do is what, on my old talk radio show, I used to call "the two-pronged approach". The first prong is direct assistance to the poor--food stamps, health care, transportation subsidies (along with actual decent public transit in the first place), full scholarships to college, et cetera. The second prong is to hit right at the external circumstances that cause poverty in the first place: everything from paranoid middle-class/rich people using their irrational fear of "them poors" to justify fleeing from certain neighborhoods (and crashing their economic vitality in the process) to "banning the box" and addressing transportation-mode discrimination. Most do go seeking support. One particular problem arises with this "pass the buck" culture of ours, where instead of people being man/woman enough to step right into a distressed person's life with true friendship and love, most just say "well, see a shrink". It's an inconvenient truth, but it's still true: many times, what distressed people need is real, actual friendship and community--not being told to sit on "the couch". It's not silly. If you knowingly do something to cause severe distress, especially in a group setting, you shoulder at least part of the responsibility for what you end up pushing your targets to do. They needed to have at least been charged with involuntary manslaughter. 2-5 years in the hoosegow, and 5-10 years of being on the papers afterward, should suffice.
People have to face the consequences of their choices in life. We shouldn't blame the so called "trolls" for this. They didn't force him to do anything.
Fortunately, awareness of the issue of bullying--on- and off-line--is growing, more and more public figures are getting onboard the train line to justice, and the momentum is with people who stand for what's right--targeting the bullies and bringing justice for their victims, rather than blaming the recipients of said abuse. Sensible states and countries are already starting to charge some bullies with the appropriate misdemeanors and felonies, including charging those who bully someone right into the grave. The percentage is not large, but progress has to start somewhere. "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." - Martin Luther King Jr.
Okay, first of all, psychological research findings are in no way scientific fact, for the simple reason that psychology isn't actually science. As I'm tired right now, and don't feel like typing up a long post, I'm just going to post a link to an article on the subject. http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/13/news/la-ol-blowback-pscyhology-science-20120713 Second, your ideas are nice, but unrealistic, and in some ways unfair. Imagine that your "free college for the poor" idea became a law. Now imagine that you're a middle class parent, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to put your kid through college. Now imagine that your neighbors, able-bodied people living on Welfare, have a kid that is attending college for free. Does anything about that scenario seem just to you? If I remember, I'll get back to the other issues later. I'm too damned tired for this right now.
I understand what you're saying, and it does make some sense. But being a survivor of a suicide attempt, I think it may be more than that. Sometimes the thing that brings you to that dark place isn't yourself, it's some... Creature, if you will, inside of you. It controls your thoughts until you are trapped in a horrid place where there seems to be only one way out of. This is just from experience. I can't agree with the statement that it is his fault, for there seems to be another force that takes over your mind in a situation like that. So no, I don't think that the "trolls" and bullies were to blame for his death, they only fueled the flames. But I can't say that his death was entirely his fault either. It wasn't fully his decision, in some ways, as he probably felt that there was absolutely nothing else he could do. Again, this is only from experience- but once that depression and suicidal ideation take hold, it's not long before the will you possess to live has fizzled out. Oh, and I'm obviously okay now, so this isn't an "attention seeking pity party post." Cheers and treble, ~PonySunrise
"Creature inside you that controls you" is not a very good way to put it, to be honest. I've had depression and thoughts of suicide myself, I know how it works pretty well. Now I'll give you this, it might seem like you're not in control of yourself. But it's not an outside 'force' or anything that would indicate the responsibility being taken away from yourself. You're still in control of yourself, you've just twisted your worldview into something that isn't true, and it affects your decision-making so you do things you normally wouldn't. The way you put it makes it sound like, or actually, directly says, that it wasn't fully his decision to commit suicide, which is very untrue. Every person who commits suicide makes the decision themselves, and are 100% responsible for that decision. The problem is, the decision is very ill-informed because said person is not seeing the world in the same way everyone else is; they put a negative twist on everything, overlook the good in life and emphasize the bad, blame themselves for everything that goes wrong (even things not related to them at all). So, it is not usually their fault that that is happening to them; it is usually circumstancial or because of a chemical imbalance. But the decision itself is entirely their own. Now, it's an entirely different thing when it comes to legal matters, but legal responsible is different from regular responsible. Legally it could be said that they were of unsound mind, and they had no legal responsibility. But that only applies to who can sue who and what insurance has to provide how much, let's be honest. It's not meant to be applied outside of law. - - Auto Merge - - I would use that phrase to describe most of socialism Which is what all those ideas are. It's nice on paper but totally unrealistic in practice. People need more motivation than "you should do this, so do it". Nobody's gonna work for the good of the state, they're gonna work for the good of them. It's human nature. Also, just for the record: There's a pretty good reason people say "well, see a shrink". It's cause a family can provide all the emotional support in the world, but emotional support alone doesn't save everyone. Psychologists and Psychoanalysts know what they are doing better than the average person, most of the time, despite the bad press they get. In fact, a lot of times the advice friends or relatives give a depressed person with entirely good intentions can actually push them closer to suicide. Don't mess with something you're not educated or trained in.
I simply wish something would come by and wipe out all of the idiots on this planet (not talking about people with learning, talking, or other disabilities either.) I hate bullying, I use to be a victim of it a couple years back, but still, who has the audacity to go off and do stuff like?! I mean, no ones perfect, but you make fun of them anyway just to 'seem cool' or 'look like a bada**'?! I got really worked up reading that story about the guy, I feel sorry for him, the world is full of humans and that is why it is dangerous (Not all humans are bad, but plenty are.) These are my thoughts about this.
Ah, well, for me, it did seem like an outside force. Having actually attempted suicide, it's absolutely huge- I remember writing in my journal that there seemed to be a demon or monster inside of me. It was unbelievably scary. Though I do agree that much of it is circumstantial. I just keep thinking back to those awful times- it was only 4 months ago, so I have it fresh in my mind. All I'm saying is that from my experience, there was something else, something terrifying. I don't know, I'm sure it differs from person to person. I think that "darkness" clouding your mind is seen differently by each person. Some note it as their friend, others their enemy, and so on.
I think it's just perception of the world that changes, like I said. It may have seemed like a monster, but I doubt it was. Convincing oneself that they are not in control of their body or emotions makes it easier to do things they wouldn't normally do like cut themselves or commit suicide. It is probably something that people who are deeper in depression that I was feel, but again, it is probably just self-delusion, and I say that in the most scientific, non-offensive way possible. Depression is a mental illness after all, and has been known to have symptoms similar to Schizophrenia in more serious cases. - - Auto Merge - - No no, see, duality. Without idiots, there cannot be geniuses. Anyways even stupid people have a right to live, unfortunately.
Do people seriously take this the wrong wayI know I should not have said anything at all because people seem to misunderstand Everything that I type because it seems people do not have the time to go off and read the full message. After I had said, "I simply wish something would come by and wipe out all of the idiots on this planet," I said afterwards, "not talking about people with learning, talking, or other disabilities either." Read the full message before replying please.
I uh...kinda did. I just didn't quote it all. My point stands, everybody has a right to live. It's kind of shortsighted to think that if all the idiots died, the world would be a better place anyways. And who is to decide who's an idiot and who's not? Annnnd, do people with learning, talking, or other disabilities somehow make the cut while people without those disabilities deserve to die? I'm just pointing out, there are lots of flaws there. I'm not getting all offended over something you didn't even say.
And everyone does, but people try to take that away from others or themselves just to make them feel better, humans get plugged into the TV, Video Games, Internet, etc. That stuff can take away time we have in life (Granted we have plenty of time) and our minds can become addicted to it. Another note, I completely agree with Legion, we have decisions our lives are based upon, make them count for every second. (This is what I believe.)
