Somehow, it seems that many people here should go on a foray into a different part of the Internet sometime. Some things there disgust me, some merely amuse me by virtue of their existance, but really, it's best described as a reality check. Or a tolerance test of sorts. For example, I have doubts than most of the people posting in this thread can easily tolerate the existence of guro, for example. Yet, in a way, these sorts of things are the very minorities we should learn to tolerate, and if need be, perhaps even defend. No matter how much they make us rage within. As for the actual topic of OP, I hold that there are really three types of grimdark and clop. That written for "comedic" value, (think So Bad It's Good), and those that are actually written well and good at what genre they are. And of course the overwhelming third section of genuinely bad fan fictions, which tend to plague the Internet. You may be asking how clop can be genuinely well written, or how grimdark can be comedic, and to that, I can only point out that some things are not meant to be taken seriously, and others are truly wonders of balance. Then again, if it's not purely text-based porn, is it really clop? And, while I'm on this tangent, views on shipping. My view on shipping is like my view on nearly everything else. I find it's existence amusing. Sometimes it's taken overboard, which overwrites the amusement with "do not want", but in most cases, hey. Love and tolerance is what drives this movement, but people tend to forget about the love part.
I only read through the first two pages of this, so I don't know what other opinions have been shared, but I'll share my own. I don't like horror in general. Grimdark (or whatever it's called, sorry for being new to that) can be okay because it's just a darker style, but horror itself has always been ehh with me. I don't really like seeing/reading about people being tortured and mutilated and whatnot. While I don't understand how that's enjoyable to some people, I know that it is, so I'll leave them to it. To each his own, you know? As for clop-fictions and all, I've read a few that I've sincerely enjoyed, and I've seen good artwork along the same lines, too. Granted, it isn't for everyone, and since that sort of material is in opposition to the values I've been taught, I'm not proud, per se, to admit it. But still, I did like them. For all of you who say that two ponies having sex is bestiality, just...no. Two ponies having sex is two ponies having sex. A pony and a human having sex is bestiality. It's only fair to be accurate. Shipping, too, is something I can enjoy. I don't enjoy every pairing as I don't feel every pony would get along like that with another pony. I like AppleDash, but would I want to see a relationship between the two on the show? No, I don't think so. The show should stay how it is, but on the side--in the land of fans, or at least my own mind--some relationships work out. Like, to me, Applejack and Rainbow Dash are cute together, and they have enough in common where a relationship could actually work (the "opposites attract" thing is really only for movies).
Firstly, I want to make it clear how I very much respect your change of heart, and how open minded you were in accepting you said things you shouldn't. It's not easy to do, but we'd be so much more advanced a society if we were all like that. Secondly, I want to highlight that pornography doesn't need to appeal to anyone else other than the target audience; If you're not interested, you don't have to like it. It would be wrong to have a go at someone for that. Heck, that's exactly what I was preaching about earlier, only the other way around. You don't need to approve of it, just respect it. As long as that is satisfied, there really is no substantial problem. One thing I will point out is that several people, both defending it and attacking it, have said something along the lines of 'it's their choice'. No, it isn't. Engaging in delving into the material is, yes, but this is only to satisy urges stemming from orientations that can not be helped. What we're attracted to isn't something we can help, and it would be wrong to try and supress or deny them in any way. That's why I get worked up at people having a go at others for things they can't help; it's akin to racism in that sense. Pornography isn't bad in any way. There could be some ethical issues about it being an 'only path' for some trying to make money, but that's individual cases unrepresentative of the industry as a whole. All of these issues are gone when talking about rule 34. They are drawings, animations, a bunch of lines that represent characters that some people are attracted to. How anyone can find something wrong with that is beyond me. I can see how they wouldn't like it, as it is seeing their favourite characters in situations they don't want to see them in, but these characters are fictional, thus it's ethical to do whatever you want to them. Are you being serious? Explain to me in what way pornography isn't healthy. It's a way of expressing sexual urges without enforcing them upon a person. Rule 34 doesn't even document real people, so if anything it's better than normal pornography (in terms of ethics). If you're referring to it being addicting, it's only so much as anything, really. Food can become addicting in certain circumstances, so using that as a stance against pornography is going to fall flat. As above, just because people can become addicted or fixated with soemthing, doesn't mean that the subject should be attacked or even made out to be wrong. That's a problem with the person and not the source material, although I'm pretty much just rephrasing myself now. Shock value usually holds very little creativity or ingenuity, but it also doesn't deserve most of the attack it gets.It's not meant to be taken seriously, yet people do so anyway. Rather ridiculous if you ask me. Also, of course 'clop' can be well written. If it engages the reader and does a good job of creating a sexually tense setting, then the writer has done exactly what was called of them. I don't get how it's amusing. I don't like it personally, but that's just me. I don't get any joy out of pairing fictional characters. It's just yet another case of whatever floats your boat though.
I find it amusing in the same way I find most of the Internet amusing. A combination of mild surprise and, for lack of a better word, disappointment. Strictly speaking one could say I find the existance of these fan works amusing, and not them fan works themselves.
Like Blize's latest dramatic reading? I suggested the fic by the way. My tastes are unprecedented, Simply going by the facial expressions of his roommates. Sent from my iPod touch 4G using Tapatalk
When I read a story, I want to be entertained. If there's sex and gore in it, then that's fine as long as it's entertaining. I've read some shipping and some clopping and some grimdark. If I at some point found them no longer entertaining, then I stop reading. It might seem like a fine line, but the simplest way of putting it is that if the goal of the story is to have characters ruthlessly killed in a most gruesome and horrible fashion, or to randomly through two characters together for the simple purpose of sex, then I no like. If the love, gore, sex are a natural course of events, then fine. On the topic of pornography in general, well, the only problem I have with it is pretty much what I say above. There's no story, no motivation, nothing other than two (or more) people getting together and having sex. Does that happen? Sure, it happens, but that's never all that happens. And showing it as such is what gets people into trouble - the idea that sex is something easy to walk into and out of. I feel sorry for the person that can actually feel that. And as for the desire to get rid of something because once you were addicted to it - I can actually understand that. My mother was - is, I should say - an alcoholic, and for a long time, I was extremely anti-alcohol. This caused me more troubles than it solved. The short of it is, you can't help anyone that doesn't want help, and will more than likely just annoy people. In short - Don't like clop/shipping/gore/porn/whatever? Don't look at it. It's really not that hard.
There are so many inspiring posts in this thread that have been added since I last posted here, so I thought I'd add some more of my own feelings. When I was a Junior in High School, I had to write a short story about myself and present it with some guy I barely knew. I thought he was a partier; it was really all he ever talked about. That made me think he might be one of the first to judge me when I read my story to our class, the sum of which was this: "Hey guys, I don't feel I'm entirely heterosexual. I can like girls and boys." Before I walked up to give my little story/speech, he pulled me aside and asked me if I was okay with doing this in front of a group of people I didn't know. The guy was WORRIED about me. That fact gave me so much faith in humanity that for the rest of the semester I felt like I was walking on air. He said he didn't understand my feelings, but that he didn't have to. He was as tolerant of a person as I have ever known. I've met tons of people, too many to even remember, who have encouraged in others a freedom to express their feelings and be themselves. My friends, my mother, my teachers, my peers, and my fellow Bronies that I have gotten to know on this site have always been a cool group of people, and have largely always shown tolerance for the emotions within others. But being tolerant isn't just saying things like "If they want read that stupid stuff, it's not my business", or "It's only a sin if you act on it." That stuff is phony. No, the kind of tolerance the Brony community advocates is also ACCEPTANCE. A friend shouldn't say "I like you in spite of the things you like", but rather "I like you, and I think it's cool that we like different things." Calling yourself "tolerant" doesn't mean much if you still go around hurting people's feelings. For example, I don't read or enjoy clopfics. I don't really enjoy huge amounts of gore or death without a purpose I can identify with. That's okay. It's also okay if you enjoy them, because not only does that make you happy, but it also opens me up to a different point of view. If my friend likes clopfis, that should be an opportunity for me to learn about clopfics and why people like them. If you understand something, it's easier to let it be. I know that if I liked clopfics, I would want my friends and my community to accept that. I'd want to hear them say, "Sure, you like clopfics. That's cool. It doesn't define you as a person, though", or maybe even "That sounds interesting. Could you tell me more?" If we embrace qualities in other people we don't initially like with the intention of understanding them, then we make the world a better place.
The one rule I try to never break, if I break all else, is "Always admit when you're wrong". I may not move from my opinion, I may not be deliberately attacking anyone, but it was clear that if you got that passionate about it, I presented it in the wrong way, and that needs fixing. So, thank you for your respect. I've said it many times, I've got a long way to go, but time and again I'm finding my experiment yields the results I want, and the self-revolution is happening. I'm grateful I do keep finding people who are willing to nudge me back on course when I stray. TO EVERYPONY: Seriously guys, this is about fan works in general. Admittedly feelings run stronger on grimdark, shipping, and in particularly clopping, but it happens. But if we're gonna talk pornography, let's put that in a different thread, kay?
I agree with this. If we're going to talk about pornography, then we should make a new thread, and maintain this maintain civilized talk we are having here. Just want to say I'm very happy to see this thread and show how mature we can all be. Bro-hugs all round!
(\ (^_^) /)*Bro-hug* Also, advice: I went and properly read My Little Dashie? Unless you like being sad or have the emotional constitution of a mountain, don't read it. It is so damn good I nearly lost it at the end-people asked me if I was alright, that's how amazingly well done it is and how bad the sorrow gets. Again, damn fine example of Fan Fiction done right. I also personally reccomend Creeping Darkness as a well done Grimdark fanfic, but it did the impossible in my mind and tied MLP and Alan Wake together well. I think people against Grimdark see people who write dark stuff to be dark and get turned off to it. This is a massive problem as 'the dark' serves as a counter point or a highlighter. For me, for example, grimdark is designed to contrast the growth and development, it's a reason why it's so important we fight for our innocence, struggle to be valorous, and sacrifice for all good and beautiful things. Narratively speaking, the dark is there so you can experience 'the light' of a story so much more strongly. And different strokes of dark and light are needed to convey the sense and idea you're working for, the atmosphere and mood demanded from the story. Darkness is, and should be portrayed as, a dragging, dulling, and slightly corrosive force. If that's all there is, you might as well take your sense of happiness and serenity and give it an acid bath, because dark by itself should have a damning effect to some degree on your mind, even with it's lightest touches. You need to contrast, you've got to give the audience something to make the end result either a net zero or a positive, a plus. While it doesn't cover broadly what I'm talking about, Joss Whedon said it best. "Make it grim, make it gritty, amke it dark, but then for the love of Pete tell a joke".(Apolgies if I slightly butchered it) And to be quite frank, that's why MLP can work grimdark-it already has a lot of positive in it that the scales can be balanced out more without violating anything. Darkness just drives home why the lessons we learn in FiM are so darn important-because that's what pulls us out and through the dark, it's what makes the wounds we recieve and turns it into strength and literally exalts us. By contrast, the darkness gives us the trial, the challenge, the oppurtunity for growth, the blessing in disguise that only works when we're guided by the values and ideas taught in FiM So, that's why I'm okay with Grimdark fanfictions as a concept. And I HAVE seen it work beautifully in Creeping Darkness(although I'd be lying if I said I didn't love it more for the sheer impossibilites of tying two nerd habits together). That said, it's worth remembering I've only ever read three fanfictions EVER and only one of those was grimdark, so my opinion is only informed by my ideas on narrative.
Bro-hug. Sorry for my part in that. I tend to not pay attention to the topic, and just talk about whatever was most recently spoken of. I'll try and be better.
And, as a writer working on something with strong dark elements, I have to agree entirely- darkness itself does not kill a work. Violence, tension, even torture are all tools to be used wisely by the author, and carefully, as they are powerful and can grow quite noxious with extreme overuse. But probably the number one thing I've seen is the elements taking over the story, and it suffers subsequently not from overuse as much as a lack of direction. That is how the infamous shock fics were born- the logical extreme of people becoming overwhelmed by their tropes and tools. Now, that does not mean anything is limited in my mind- even downer endings are an option (to be handled with love and care), perhaps even torture and sexuality. But it is all about use, moderation, and intent.
I simply cannot understand the dislike of shipping, but I think I read it for a different reason than people assume. I like the idea that there is a happy romance in the story. I love happy endings. Spark had a happy ending after so much struggle and tension. Then, the Epilogue is a soul crushing tragedy that makes you consider many ideas. I like much of the posts here and applaud their insight and acceptance of the varying genres of the fanworks. I, personally, fully support almost (key word) any fanwork style. There are artists who do take our favorite characters and place them into mature circumstances such as Slugbox or Crookedtrees. Both talented artists, I fully appreciate their art for what it is. If it also brings with it a more powerful reaction, then it has simply accomplished an extra purpose and makes it that much more of a masterpiece in my eyes. Grimdark: In the 1000 thread, I posted that a thousand things can be derived from a single idea. Look at Princess Luna -- We had so many fan interpretations of her before her episode. All of them were plausible and made sense because of what little information we had to go on. Grimdark ideas can be pulled from things like Princess Celestia as a ruler. In the grander scheme of things, she would have to make harsh choices, and war is a very popular dark concept. When ruling a country, it is easy to conflict with another. Looking further, we see many of the characters have some kind of psychological break down. In fiction, this has resulted in quite a number of stories involving them. Cupcakes is more than a shining example of Pinkie Pie's break down (to an absolute extreme, though the fiction itself was never written seriously) explored in one interpretation. I feel that just about any concept or idea is good when properly elaborated on--be it writing or visual art. Or even music. I'm not an artsy person, but I have oddly come to appreciate artwork for what it is, detail and all. As a fanfiction writer, I would seem inclined to defend and/or justify my writing, but my beliefs were established years beforehand. Maybe I'll actually do a post on what I mean with all of this stuff to help others understand my point of view.
I'm jumping in a little late, I have NOT read previous posts. So don't hate if I remention stuff. @aynine, you say that you support the style of art done by an artist, be it drawing, music or writing. I have to ask how do you feel about sweet apple massacre? I defended months ago without question until I read it. I still support the writers choice to do it. Even if it is a troll fic. They have every right to do it. I simple rule to follow though. If you don't like it don't look at it. As far as shipping, I'll take any pairing. I love what writers can do with them. Like Luna Applejack or Rainbow Dash and Trixie. The story "Of mares and magic" darn near ripped my heart out at the end. I guess some people confuse ship with clop. Like you said slugbox is amazing I love his work. I've only read on clop fic and it was more on story then clop. It has a sad ending. Maybe I've read 2 if you count molestia. -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
I have not read SAM, and I probably won't. That's where the "almost" comes in. A while back, people posted their thoughts/reactions to Cupcakes and someone brought up SAM and let it slip as to what some of its content was. Needless to say, where Cupcakes was a joke, SAM has no justification. Stuff like that exists and I choose to ignore it. It's clearly not something I'm interested in. I also believe that clop and shipping does get confused a lot. I think many people assume shipping involves more mature themes when it really is just a catch-all for anything non-sexual. "Fluff" generally describes cuddly stuff as a standalone tag, where shipping/pairing/romance in general means no more than kissing, typically. "Of Mares & Magic" is one of my favorite shipping fics. The original ending is a true soul crusher.
I don't really judge people for their interest in those sorts of things. Many great artists deliver exquisite works with mature themes. As with the sexuality subject, it doesn't matter to me what people are into. In the light of art appreciation, Fchan has tons of great artists. However, they do have a substantial amount of mature art for just about any situation there as well. This is just my views on it, though. There is a forever ongoing stigma with furries though, and it seems this fandom is heavily meshed into that. I don't really get it, though.
