I respectfully disagree with this. We're not "brutally attacking" the system. We're saying that it has the following problems: Rep-trolling: Giving members reputation only for the sake of giving them more gems. Buddy-repping: Giving someone rep time and time again only because you're friends with them, not for the posts they make. Rep-value: Some members are under the impression that pixel-rep matters so much so that members with a lack of gems think they're worthless. Pixel vs Real: Some members, especially new ones that aren't accustomed to the users of the forum yet, are under the impression that members with a bunch of gems are the so-called "big shots" or they should be emulated. As I stated in my previous post, this is a double-edged sword of sorts. Rep-power: This concept shouldn't even exist. It's based on such a frivolous quantity: Post count. Something that can be enhanced very easily. Too easily. Inequality: Our site's motto is "Where everypony is somepony." This implies that we are all equal. However, the reputation system seems to betray that. It, unintentionally, makes it look like we're all unequal; that some members are better than others. I don't think anypony is better than another. Regardless, I think the judgment of one's reputability should be made by the content of one's posts, not the gems above their avatar. I believe that sums up the arguments for its removal. You said you were gone for a month or so, so I hope that helps. The moments of corruption, as you called them, I'd hate to say, aren't something of the past. It's what's going on now. Although I don't know if "corruption" would be the right word or not. Some of the problems stem from the system's flaws itself. Rep-power is a prime example of that. It's not the member's fault they have a high power, after all. I'd be all for everypony just having 1 point of rep power myself if it were revamped. No matter what the increment is, I'd want it to be equal amongst all. Staff included. Just because we're staff, I don't think we should have a 1-up on the rep system, but that would only remedy 1 issue. This is true, we do have arguments and conflicts, in fact we're having a debate right now. The debate being about the reputation system. However, conflicts and arguments aren't correlated to the notion of inequality all the time. At least, I don't think they are in this particular case. We aren't debating because we think someone is better than someone else. Some of us are just saying that we think the reputation system should be removed and are stating our reasons why. I never felt it was a "vital part" of the community, personally. I don't see it as a necessity. We don't need it here, but, according to the polls, many want it here. I can respect that though. I can't speak for Saikyo, but I don't "hate" the system "so much," at least in terms of the tl;dr posts we make. That really has very little bearing on my opinion anyway. As I said before, "quality" is subjective. I've +repped people for things that weren't the so-called "walls of text" some of you are accustomed to seeing from me. That makes it sound as if we want people to appease us or something. That's not what I want at all. Maybe Saikyo does, but I'm not sure (Just kidding, buddy! ^_^). I'm not comfortable with the "just because everyone else does it" argument. I've seen rep-systems and karma-systems on other forums. I don't particularly care for either one of them. In fact, as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I used to be a member of a forum that had no reputation system, or anything similar to it, and everything went by smoothly. As for the like/dislike thing, well, you guys already know how I feel about that. I posted previously that I wasn't for a replacement. Besides, that doesn't eliminate the social status issue, and it's still subject to the subjectivity of what people define as quality. I could easily see one-liners getting 100 likes while tl;dr's only get 2. Why? Not because the latter wasn't liked, but because it was simply overlooked. I'd rather be complimented by someone posting they liked it, not just a thumbs-up. It coincides with with I said about neutral-rep in the past. The comments were much more valuable than the points were, and I still stand by that. Once again, just my opinion and personal preference though. I find the whole Facebook "like" system to be lazy anyway. I could easily see this becoming a popularity contest to see who gets the most "likes." No thanks. As greyOne said, it'd be the rep system, but just with a different fluff. Why do we even need a system like that? Is it really that essential? Just wondering.
Whatever happens I really don't care that much if the rep system gets removed or not. As long as the site stays up, hey I'm a happy pony!
Oooh, that's a good idea. Rating a post on how good it is would definitely make it more fair. But for "deciding what rep is good and what is worthless" should be up to the user. I think there are enough honest people here who wouldn't like getting rep for no reason. It basically looks like a stain on your profile. For example: you get rep and the message is "rep for no reason here ya go haha", I would want that removed immediately. I don't think there are many people here who would spam rep, but more user control should be enabled for rep - like having the choice of not even allowing rep to be given to you. But that's just the way I see it. I didn't even want a green gem for awhile and yet I got it within 2 weeks of me being here. It kind of ruins the "achievement" of a helpful post.
It wouldn't be just 'enabling' - It'd be 'coding' that.. And since reputation is a system core to Vbulletin, it'd be very hard to modify it and retain it's functionality.. It's looking more and more like a scratch made replacement is the way to go.. I'd want something that made you earn your own rep, rather than other people giving it you - How does that sound and how might it be achieved? (postcount is not going to happen, way too easy to abuse)!
Sorry, "enabling" wasn't the best word choice. Instead of using postcount as the factor on how much rep is received, what about the amount of rep, the giver has? This would somewhat make it harder for people to spam rep, because if they are a spammer in the first place, or a new member who joined for the purpose of spamming; their rep would be low anyway. Would that be possible to implement?
my opinion on this is that the like system would work great, the rep system is so visibly public, that any newcomer would see someone who has red gems and think that they are of great value, while the like system infers that people like a specific comment. i don't think newcomers are going to go through each and every thread and see which member has the most likes. As for the competition, i don't think many people are going to have competition to see who can get the most likes, it would be pretty hard since the likes go to the comment and not the user. its "user likes this comment", not "user likes this user". the amount of likes one comment would get wouldn't show up on the user of that comment's forum page since it doesn't affiliate with that user. the point of the like button is to like the comment, not the user.(repeated 3 times for clarification) whether a one-liner gets 100 likes and a long tl;dr post gets 10 shouldn't be an issue unless you are the type who likes that type of publicity, it matters on the users view. If anything, the like system can be used to separate hot topics from old topics, so if a topic is really strong and highly used, someone can like the thread and then in the forums section you can click Hot topics and you see which one has the most likes. A like system for individual posts, or a like system for individual threads, maybe both.
I hate to be direct. I truly do. But any system that is easily abusable has to be removed. "Less Abusable" still has the key word "Abusable" in there. Any system, regardless of HOW abusable it is, is a flawed one. Hence why I'm for removal of said system.
Are you attempting to strive for perfection? I must mention, A lack thereof is also an imperfection, A void that must be filled.
i was going to say that... It's better than the rep system, that's for sure. why not give it a try, If it looks like it works and it feels like works then it works.
I think you are right about one thing. I wouldn't suspect newcomers to go through a bunch of posts to see who has the most liked posts, unless somehow that was implemented into the system, like being able to sort users by the most liked posts just as we can sort users now by the most amount of reputation. As for the competition, I can easily see it becoming one if the aforementioned sorting possibility was implemented. Even if that didn't exist, I could still see the possibility of users vying for likes. Granted, it wouldn't be in the same level as the rep system. As you said, it wouldn't be as visible. As for the tl;dr vs one-liner argument, that was just an example. It wasn't meant to be the defining message of that post. I could've easily said one-liners vs image macros or something else. I just think that serves as a good opposing-extreme example when relating it to the subjective nature of what individuals define as "quality." Your comment on that actually further proves my point. We don't need a "like" system to separate hot topics from old topics. You can easily tell that right now. The forum does that for you. That's why certain topics are gray while others are orange. As for liking a thread, we already have a rating system, so that's not necessary either. Certainly you've noticed the stars (this thread has 3 out of 5 at the moment). I don't know, implementing a like-system makes me feel like we'd be turning Everypony into Facebook. I don't know how others feel about that though. Then again, a like-system doesn't eliminate the "rep-value" issue. Instead of rep, replace it with "like-value." Suppose a member never gets their posts liked. I think that would make some feel pretty bad. Also, the popular members will probably get their posts liked all the time anyway. The like system really doesn't aid much here. It's just another way for popularity to be exploited. A like-system will eliminate the rep-power and rep-trolling issues, at least. Also, the "Pixel vs Real" issue I mentioned would still remain, but on a smaller scale. Just change the name "Like vs Real" and you still have the same issue as before. You just managed to cut down on a few. I'm sorry, but I don't consider that satisfactory, although, I will admit that it is better than the current system, but it's hardly necessary. I still stand by my claim that no replacement is necessary. Just trash the current system and be done with it. I want our site's motto to truly be "where everypony is somepony," not "where you're somepony... if people like your posts enough, that is."
I think a "like post" system would be even worse then the one we have now. I want to se the system go. I don't want a "fixed" version. The only way to truly fix it is to remove it and let the members use their own intrenal system like I do. -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
The only unabusable system is no system. I once defened the system,but now I just want it gone. Thank you saikyo. -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
So you would agree that the Member ship status, ie Junior Member, Member, etc should be removed as well?
*Pokes head around corner* I still think Custom Titles sounds mighty fine. But Grey said he didn't want to. So hey, I think the member status should be gone too. It serves no purpose.
I see no reason in member status. I think it should be time based not post based. I could care less about membership status. It's just a word. -- Sent from my Palm Pre using Forums
